What's your favorite quest pack?

[wallydubbs]

I've waited for Crypt of Perpetual Darkness to finally come in to see if Joe made any alterations to the story, but it doesn't seem like it.

I was just wondering what everyone's favorite quest pack is in terms of storyline, creativity, playability and contents.
Of course the Game System practically wins in content as, asides from First Light, it's the only one that includes all contents necessary to play the game. There's a different storyline for every quest that fits into an overarching story escalating from Ulag to the Fire Mage and finally the King riding off to confront Zargon's army. The quests are remarkably creative and the only criticisms I can offer is the Trial being too difficult for a first quest, the later quests aren't quite adjusted for built heroes, the brick wall tiles blend into the hallway, and maybe a little more variety to the treasure deck (I miss the additional "Nothing" and "Holy Water" cards from the original European edition).

First Light has all the necessary components to play the game too, but most people would prefer the plastic furniture and figurines over cardboard tiles. The storyline makes enough sense with Synchroform and I love the private civil war among the Dread Cult. Kassandra is talked about but doesn't quite feature as a villain the heroes face, but merely her Witch Hand. The Dragon is a nice powerful addition, but Qwindrack's constant vanishing after each fight becomes really annoying. The Escape Dread Spell doesn't even feature in this quest pack (or any other quest pack Asides from the Game System), so I feel they could've just changed the wording of the spell, that casting it negates all final damage and the monster disappears without the reappearance text in the card. The absence of the Hearthkin Horn is another issue, where they could've just made a card for it. Nor do I care for the newly hatching Dragon at the end, born into complete sentience without a period of infancy. Taking the egg and giving it to Mentor would've been a more proper ending. The Dragon and double sided board are the only reason I got this, but that alternate board and dragon are only usable for this quest pack.

Keller's Keep is thematically creative as the heroes journey through the former Dwarven refuge to rescue the King and his army before Zargon's forces make a final assault. But Asides from all the additional Greenskins, the Dwarven Forge and Grin's Crag are the only additions that effect the heroes environment.

Prophecy of Telor is unique in separating 1 particular hero from the rest of the group as a big part of the story is in keeping that hero alive and preventing Melar from possessing his body. The story could be all about saving that one hero, it's more personal that way, but there's an overarching prophecy about Fellmarak, which wasn't necessary. Fellmarak just comes out of nowhere as the final boss, though Zargon's Flame is a fun mechanic. The contents include the Warlock hero, which has absolutely nothing to do with story, but is thematically related regarding the possession storyline. This, however, makes the Arena of Misildea a mess to reason. No magic, it forces Melar out of the hero but he ends up going into an Abomination currently in the Arena? I have no problem with a Goblin spy working for the empire in Grawk, but giving him the same stats as a Gargoyle is a little much. I didn't care for Melar's Chambers, where the heroes turn into Orcs. But overall the quest pack wasn't terrible.

Spirit Queen's Torment rubs me the wrong way. It seems like it was written by someone with a Woke mindset, trying to be inclusive to Orcs, completely overlooking the fact that Orcs don't exist. They comprise the majority of Zargon's army and yet they flooded an old temple to prevent Zargon from gaining forgotten knowledge. The heroes ally themselves with two Orcs in Sigill and Udren, neither of which fit as the Bard hero that accompanies this quest pack, which we've all come to know is an Orc. The character, much like the Warlock is more D&Dish than HeroQuest. And the more I read through the storyline the further I'm convinced that Silvanna and Nelath were lesbians. The whole storyline and quest park aren't necessary in the HeroQuest lore.

Return of the Witch Lord is a classic, as I still find the Witch Lord to be the most iconic villain the heroes vanquish. This one is pretty much the heroes against the army of the dead and the quest pack finishes off the story of a villain from the Game System and First Light alike. The contents only offer more undead, but it would've been preferable with foresight to add the Witch Lord in this quest pack as well. The Forbidden Caverns is the only quest that needs adjusting. The heroes are supposed to be going through a fallen city, but it doesn't really feel like that when playing as the heroes just keep going from the starting door to the exit door, which becomes a common theme in a lot of these quest packs.

In Against the Ogre Horde I had a lot of fun with the Arena, though I seriously had to adjust the points system for it. This was a great addition and to add it for the first 3 Quests made this quest pack old and new at the same time. This quest pack is the first (in order) to introduce new monsters. The Ogres are heavy hitters but getting around their defense with magic is strategic fun, as without it they can really bring the hurt. The traps in this quest pack are more painful and we get a new and different Druid hero from the Mythic Tier as well as a pet Wolf and ranged monsters you can add to earlier quests. This quest pack has the same standard linear layout of entering through one door and leaving another, going deeper and deeper into the cave system. The only downside is that there are no new artifacts found in the quest pack. However, the final quest, Flight to the Surface is too damning as one wrong turn can leave the heroes trapped with no way to fight through the horde of monsters. I don't think that quest was playtested through.

Frozen Horror is a broken quest pack as it was never properly playtested back in the '90's, nor did they bother to with the remake. Without doctoring this quest pack is nearly unbearable. The storyline still stands out as the heroes need to stop and ancient monster that threatens to set off an eternal winter. The contents of the box is good as it introduced new monsters, favorable to the Arctic climate, mercenaries and overlay tiles that change the setting of the standard game to a frozen tundra. The expansion is very linear, as the heroes just keep fighting from the starting door to the exit door. However the quest pack tries something different with 3 solo quests at the start. If not for the massive difficulty and it were actually doable for a starting hero this would've been a breakthrough, but they never bothered to bring back solo quests in the newer expansions.

Mage of the Mirror is also a broken expansion, but Hasbro caught the tail end as they were getting ready to ship them out and changed the Ogre's body points while adding how to handle unmarked chests. The story fits well enough as there is civil war in the Elven Kingdom and Sinestra kidnapped the Elven princess Millandrial. I can buy the fact she has a lot of pet wolves, but as this is supposed to be taking place in the Elven Kingdom there seems to be a lot more Orcs, Undead & Dread Warriors than Elven Warrior and Archers. Sinestra doesn't have that many Elven followers and the forces of Dread have taken over Glenis Fen. There are more Ogres in this quest pack than Elven Archers. Another issue is the missing artifact card for the Elven Chainmail. The quests are laid out in linear form all starting in one door, leaving through another, yet when you read the quest notes, this is not the case. In the Elven Prospector the heroes are going into a mine, and yet there's a back door, the same applies when dealing with Tormuk.
However this expansion offers a lot of good too: it's packed with new monsters and furniture that seem to fit the board better than the originals; there's new spell cards for the Elf that are game changing, and new artifacts that end up making the Elf overpowered, which helps going through a broken quest pack. There's also the 3 solo quests, and the first DOES seem doable for a starter Elf. But the 2 other solo quests ramp up the difficulty with the inclusion of Giant Wolves.

Rise of the Dread Moon makes the setting more Elven. Instead of dealing with over powered monsters, Avalon Hill added monsters with spells, getting rid of the Ogres and Giant Wolves, but adding Dread Cultists and Specters. I do wish there was more overlap between MotM and RotDM as these are supposed to be sequels, but there were limited Elven Warriors & Archers in MotM. Trading up some Dread Warriors in MotM with Magus Guards and Elven Warriors might help. Magrian, however, comes out of nowhere as the main villain and Sir Ragnar's defective involvement seems random and forces. I have no issues turning Ragnar evil, but adding him in an Elven setting seems forced. The "Dread Moon" factor is now causing all the problems, where a better storyline would have focused on the Mirror from the previous expansion opening a dimensional window, bringing Magrhan forth.
The expansion continues to issue more furniture as well as statues and adds the disguised mechanic, which is ok, but I feel that needed to elaborate on the rules of this. I DO love the crafting mechanic, as this is a wonderful addition to HeroQuest that could be added to previous and later expansions.

Jungles of Delthrak has a decent enough storyline and the fact that the story progresses depending on the heroes choices is a new development for HeroQuest. It's a good thing as overall it has 3 different possible outcomes, but at the same time I don't think the same cares will be playing it twice. The new monsters are ok, but there's so many new abilities that they have that it leaves the Zargon player constantly going back in the instruction book to look them us. The majority of these new monsters are animal based, asides from the Blightweavers, and the problem with that is that they have a lot more Mind Points than they have any right to. Why would raptors and Giant apes have more mind points than Dread Cultist, who are themselves spell casters? It doesn't make a lot of sense despite hero mind based spells are few and far between. The contents, outside of the monsters, are quite rewarding with 2 new heroes and 2 new pets. But the tiles fail to make the board a convincing jungle as it's sometimes difficult to understand what's going on with the quest maps without reading the description.

Crypt of Perpetual Darkness doesn't have the best story as it starts off with a misplaced sense of priorities on the part of the heroes. With their "hometown" occupied, the heroes decide to investigate an ancient map instead of fighting off the invaders. The story seems quite odd as the heroes have a hideout and downtime, suggesting that they've been in hiding during the occupation of their "hometown." But just the same, they get the map, break a friend out of jail and instead of clearing out the invaders they go on a quest about a legendary Crypt. Sure, I understand, don't let the map fall into Zargon's hands, but this Crypt has been in the Marsh of Sorrows for centuries and the Death Knight has yet to unleash his forces onto the world, so maybe they could just deal with the hometown first... Nope. Anyhow the heroes find the Crypt and there's already plenty of orcs and Dread Warriors down there... So did Zargon know about the Crypt or not? Anyway the ending leaves off on a cliffhanger as the bearer of the Crown of Shadows might be stuck with another cursed object he can't take off. The quests are fun enough with new things like Acid added to the story and it's not too difficult capping off with a fight against a Dragon. But when you move to the contents of the box we have the Dragon, Character Sheets, dice, tiles, a bunch of cards that don't fit with the artwork of the previous cards and the quest book. There's nothing to get overly excited about here.

So which of these quest pack are your favorite and why? Can you rank how you like them. I was hoping to hear everyone's opinions on these matter...

[MonsterMotor]

I have not played or analysed all of the packs, but know most of them very well. I would say there is a small, tight cluster of packs topping the list. For me, there is no pack that excels in all of your 4 criteria. Overall, it is probably still the base game that wins for me.

By the way, you forgot to list Wizards of Morcar, although that expansion would certainly earn one of the lower ranks due to its multiple design flaws.

[wallydubbs]

I have not played or analysed all of the packs, but know most of them very well. I would say there is a small, tight cluster of packs topping the list. For me, there is no pack that excels in all of your 4 criteria. Overall, it is probably still the base game that wins for me.

By the way, you forgot to list Wizards of Morcar, although that expansion would certainly earn one of the lower ranks due to its multiple design flaws.

I'm waiting/hoping for the remake before making an in depth analysis. I'm certainly hoping they make it because at this juncture the Old Wizards of Morcar is only comparable to the old European version. Unlike the new Against the Ogre Horde, it doesn't follow the same base rules of the new version, which are banked with North American rules. It always seemed incomplete without an epilogue, which I pray Hasbro/Avalon Hill will capitalize on. In saying all this I remember another criticism of AtOH I had failed to add into my summary: the Dominate, Mind Burst & Mind Lock spells that this quest pack incorp ok rates are irrelevant; they would've been much more powerful had they been replaced with Command, Mind Freeze & Mind Blast from other quest packs. I understand that they wanted to make this as close to the original as possible (with the arena addition), but this could've made it more compatible.

Just the same I'm inclined to agree that the Game System is the best well rounded quest pack as there's a lot of small colorful quests and the heroes build up over time.
I also really like some of the quests in Keller's Keep as the Dwarven Stronghold holds a lot of flavor.
Frozen Horror is broken in terms of difficulty, but it has a lot of content in new monsters, mercenaries, dice & character sheets, and overlay tiles that really change the feel of the game.
I also really like Against the Ogre Horde as it was my most memorable playthrough.
Honorable mentions go to Rise of the Dread Moon as it introduced new mechanics and monsters, though easier than it's predecessor, Channel Dread spell upped the ante.
Also Prophecy of Telor made part of the quest about saving the hero instead of a mission for the overall good of the realm.

[MonsterMotor]

I agree a lot with your summaries of the packs. Wizards of Morcar has great potential if they overhaul and extend it properly this time, but I have doubts that this will happen.

Altogether, we already have enough HQ packs to fill or waste hours and hours of gaming time. My own interest in new HQ stuff is waning and I would buy only very high quality packs in the future.

Now, being more specific on your 4 criteria of valuation, I have no full ranking list but clear winners and losers for each of the aspects:

Storyline winner: Base Game
Storyline loser: Spirit Queen

Creativity winner (excluding base game): Dread Moon
Creativity loser: First Light

Playability winner: Kellar's Keep
Playability loser: Barbarian Quest

Components winner (excluding base game): Barbarian Quest
Components loser: Prophecy of Telor
My true components winner would be the 1993 EU Master Edition base game.

[wallydubbs]

Those are all very good picks, and I'm inclined to agree with you for the most part:

Storyline: The Game System has an overarching story while the heroes engage in a lot of separate stories. So I'm inclined to agree.
Spirit Queen's Torment is probably the worst along with Crypt of Perpetual Darkness.

Playability goes to Keller's Keep, Against the Ogre Horde was up there too if not for Flight to the Surface. However I do wish Keller's Keep did more with the stone map. I decided with my last group that when they got to Grin's Crag I'd have them assemble the stone map and then I'd lay out the path to Exit Door. However I'd tell them the final attack on the Emperor was imminent and the heroes had 20 turns to make it or the entire quest was lost.
Again you're correct on Frozen Horror's difficulty ranks it the lowest on playability.

On Creativity the implementation of crafting was genius so Rise of the Dread Moon is up there, but reverting back to some of the more creative quests like Castle of Mystery and Halls of Vision give the Game System and Return of the Witch Lord a place on the list.
I figured Spirit Queen's Torment is last as nothing really sticks out to me that I find creatively memorable about this quest pack. First Light at least had an alternate board; Ogre Horde had the Arena; and Frozen Horror had the Winter theme. The Jungle theme of Delthrak didn't work out so well, but they tried.

In terms of Content the Game System and Frozen Horror stick out to me.
I don't see much difference between Prophecy of Telor and Spirit Queen's Torment, but overall I find it Crypt of Perpetual Darkness offering the least in terms of content.

[MonsterMotor]

Well, Prophecy of Telor gets my component loser award because it lacks a large, essential overlay for its Arena of Misildia, while being littered with mostly unnecessary plastic otherwise.

Then, I don't consider putting a dragon villain into a dungeon utterly creative, especially when First Light does it directly in HQ for a second time, after the unimpressive Crypt of Perp. Darkness. HQ really does not need D&D being literally copied into it. I do like D&D for what it stands as an RPG and also remember the D&D board game's Eternal Winter expansion, which already had some more creative ideas with an odd flight mechanics and large open areas where a cool transparent dragon mini could put its wings to better use. That game set was created 20 years ago.

[wallydubbs]

You have a good point with the Arena of Misildea. I think all of us were hoping for an overlay tiles.
The arena from Ogre Horde won't fit over it completely, it's one row too big.

[lestodante]

I have to agree with all that Wallydubbs sayd in teh first post.
CoPD and SQT are my top losers for story and content. Also the tavern tile in CoPD has wrong portortions, having tables matching the size of a hero's foot! The vine tiles are also repeated in the Jungle pack which was released to retail before the Crypt (I am not considering the Mythic Tier version). New card style in the Crypt is nonsense for me, a totally wrong move. The Dragon is looking better than the one in First Light but is placed over a pillar which prevent him a realistic movement around the dungeon. Orc Bard is the n.1 loser hero, which very few people agreeing to his presence in the HQ world, followed by the Warlock which is also weird and unnecessary.

I like the new content in Frozen Horror and Mage of the Mirror, despite their crazy difficulty level, which is easily adjustable step by step by an experienced master. Both of them have a missing artifact or unlisted in the questbook. But they offer a lot of new stuff and the Elf Spells are a must have for the elf.

The two new "big" packs RotDM and JoD are both offering new stuff and new mechanics. But som of them would need a revision in my opinion (camouflage for example). Sir Ragnar appearing in RotDM was not agood idea also, expecially if they are not including a proper miniature. He was already dead in RotWl epilogue (at least in the 1989 European version - Hasbro should have considered this).
The two new druids are cool miniatures in my opinion, much better than the female druid from the Mythic Tier box.

Witch Lord and Kellar's Keep are both classics, they offered new content with a limited budget. They should not be missing in any collection in my opinion. HAsbro miss the chance to include a couple of extras with their remake.

First Light is a good chance to upgrade from the '89 version to the 2021 version. There are no plastic mosters, I know, but all the monsters are already included in the packs mentioned above. The alternate board is also a good extra which offers new option for custom quests and the heroes sculpts look better than the minis featured in the Game-System in my opinion.

Prophecy of Telor is a good questpack because of the story. The floor tiles are missing unfortunately but easy to find as custom-made stuff. Also missing new cards and real new monsters. So I am OK having just the questbook from the Mythic Tier as I don't like translucent monsters neither the foiled box.

The Ogre pack was my best choice here, because of the new additions by Hasbro. Altought the command Ogres are too big in size (two squares???) and even stronger than a Gargoyle which is nonsense for me. The arena rules need a revision definetely.
I hope they will expand the Wizards of Morcar pack as they did with the Ogre pack but they must be carefull as many of the new spells are really weak and need to be revised.