Playing HeroQuest for the first time as a group of adults

[Osku]

Greetings,

I've had a passing interest in this game for years, but never actually played it. Now that the re-release is readily available everywhere i decided to pick it up. Me and my group of friends enjoy playing pretty complex and difficult games, which i'm pretty sure this game really isn't. I really enjoy the theming here but it's pretty clear to me it's intended for a bit younger audience.

So, after googling a bit i found out these forums and saw that the game still has a pretty sizeable fanbase of adults as well.

So, my question is this. Can you recommend me a way to homebrew this game a bit in order to make it more challenging to the players. I noticed the japanese rules include an xp system which seems like a pretty interesting idea to me, something like that. Or do you think i should just play it with the regular rules instead? I'd like to hear arguments for this too.

This is also my first post on these forums so if this wasn't the right place to ask this then i apologize.

[Nlinindoll]

Heroquest is a GREAT "beer & pretzels" game... so while simple, it's still a lot of fun for adults. My group of players range from 30-44 years old, and we get together twice a month to play over the course of the past 3 years and are now 106+ quests into it. We have a blast, but the group is (for the most part) made up of very casual players... not "gamers" in the usual sense. We socialize, snack, and have a lot of laughs as we play. Even for more hardcore, "serious" gamers, a more casual game can be fun from time to time.

I am a big believer in the idea that "one should first know all the rules before you break them." Therefore, before you add any home-brew content, I would suggest you play through at least the 14 quests of the base game with rules as written with your players. The expansion packs really ramp up the difficulty, so even if you get to a point where you feel like the base game is too easy, you might also want to give an expansion pack a try before you change too much in terms of home-brew rules.

My personal philosophy with home-brew is that I want it to be additive - not replacing - meaning I add additional things to the game while trying to keep the core gameplay essentially unchanged. A lot of the excitement in the game come from a creative and strategic Zargon player. With the right Zargon, the base game with rules as written can shine as well. That said, I do add some home-brew that you might find useful as you get more familiar with the game.

I add additional monsters with special abilities. The best Bestiary I found is based on monster stats converted from Warhammer Fantasy Battle 3rd Edition - it fits as the original HeroQuest was loosely set in the Warhammer World. Adding monsters with increased stats and special abilities from time to time can really change up gameplay. You can find the Bestiary I use at viewtopic.php?f=36&t=5675

I use Phoenix's Imperial Academy for hero advancement. It offers additional spells, skills and equipment for heroes to buy (with gold) based on the number of quests they have completed. It therefore leaves the base game mechanics essentially untouched - doesn't change the rules, but adds more of what makes the game so charming. You can find Phoenix's Imperial Academy at https://heroquestbyphoenix.yeoldeinn.com/resources.php

Another new home brew card set I picked up that incorporates the fan created "Power Dice" is the "Old World Armory." While I have introduced these to my players, we have yet to bring them to the table, but it adds additional choice into weapon selection and special abilities that go along with t hose weapons. You can check out the Old World Armory card deck at https://www.etsy.com/listing/1791260074 ... -equipment

Lastly, I would mention that the official "hero collections" with their new heroes add quite a different twist on the way heroes play. To add more strategy and change up gameplay, offer your players the opportunity to test out different heroes than the original four. The Monk, the Rogue, the Knight, the Berserker, the Explorer... they all add interesting choices for the players keeping the game interesting.

Hopefully, that helps! Happy Questing!

[MonsterMotor]

Long story short: yes there are homebrew rules that should suit your purposes very well. Look here, I called this Tactical Heroquest (THQ) for a purpose:
https://forum.yeoldeinn.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=6622

This brings a lot of tactical depth into the gameplay, while also fixing a number of issues of the standard rules overall. It also includes a very simple advancement system of the heroes' main stats. In general, THQ offers a higher challenge level than the standard HQ rules do, and there quite a bit of theory in the background to balance things.

I am a big believer in the idea that "one should first know all the rules before you break them." Therefore, before you add any home-brew content, I would suggest you play through at least the 14 quests of the base game with rules as written with your players. The expansion packs really ramp up the difficulty, so even if you get to a point where you feel like the base game is too easy, you might also want to give an expansion pack a try before you change too much in terms of home-brew rules.

Yes, the original HQ rules are still a good start, and there is certainly nothing wrong in using them as they are at the beginning.

My personal philosophy with home-brew is that I want it to be additive - not replacing - meaning I add additional things to the game while trying to keep the core gameplay essentially unchanged. A lot of the excitement in the game come from a creative and strategic Zargon player. With the right Zargon, the base game with rules as written can shine as well. That said, I do add some home-brew that you might find useful as you get more familiar with the game.

I believe this is what most people like and do. Thus, there is tons of extra HQ stuff all over the internet. But here my HQ homebrew philosophy is actually different. I want to preserve the slenderness of HQ, which I find most appealing of this game. Additive changes can easily overload the game. Therefore, changes in THQ are mostly replacing, but additive only where I deemed that necessary. I personally do not want to have piles over piles of extra cards to bother with, either.

So, Osku, there you go with some very different paths to possibly follow.

[Kurgan]

Good point that a game being "easy" doesn't necessarily mean it can't also be enjoyable. "Simple" also doesn't have to be "boring" (people pick the Barbarian instead of the Wizard not just because they think the former is strong and the latter weak, but because they like not having to manage an extra pile of cards with their character, while the opposite is true of other players). When I've played as Zargon going over these official quests, I've tended to add things too, rather than subtract. In video games I always liked when difficulty increases added more enemies (or enhanced the strength of existing ones) rather than just starting you with fewer lives or less ammo. So that's been my philosophy as well as a GM in HeroQuest trying to moderate difficulty.

In practice this means that over time I may have to add more challenges because old challenges are nerfed, and hard quests will be completed but they will take a LOT longer to play. Occasionally instilling fear in your confident heroes is a good thing, so long as they don't become frustrated and full of despair (they will rage quit, and the game will be over).

The easiest thing is that you could entirely skip the Game System and just start on the expansions, if the only thing holding your people back is the notion that the game is "too easy" because that's really only a criticism that hits the first campaign. Even the upcoming "First Light" (which nerfs several of the spells as well as some of the Equipment) upgrades the difficulty and complexity of its starting 10. Pretty much every other expansion out there assumes that you're experienced either in terms of playing the game, or having saved gear, and purposely gives you an increased challenge.

Please note, I don't necessarily think the following suggestions will make the game more fun for your group. You'll have to discover what it is that they like and lean into that. But if simple challenge is your goal, any one of these could up that for you, easily. You may want to warn your players that you've made modifications to make the game more challenging, and I would emphasize that they asked for this... You don't want them to be bored, do you? Many of these rules can be dropped or changed before you take on the expansions, because those are harder and don't really need as much tweaking, probably.

If you want to make the Game System more challenging, even up to the point of making it unplayable, you have many options out there. Notice I didn't nerf any spells or make the crossbow less fun to use. I didn't suggest that cards should limit supply when it comes to Equipment, but those are things others have tried as well. I tried to focus on changes Zargon can make on the fly with very little homework required. After awhile your heroes may beg for mercy (unless they quit the game, yes, even adults can be sore losers, especially if they think the GM has rigged things against them purposely), so be warned. Even without "rocks fall, everyone dies" moments, Zargon may inadvertently lose his playing audience if he isn't careful.

1) Upgrade the monsters. Some clever suggestions have been made like allowing goblins to move, attack and move on the same turn, or skeletons attack diagonally (that's from the companion app), but you can go further. Give all the monsters an extra body point. That alone is a big deal. Or if you really want to make things difficult, let monsters defend on white shields (instead of black) that makes the fights much tougher. Or if you're Zargon and want to fine tune it, you can go through the maps and change stuff. Yes, you can tweak every aspect of a quest. But you can replace your goblins with orcs, your orcs with fimir (or Abominations as they're called in the modern remake edition)... replace skeletons with Zombies (you might run out) and zombies with mummies (and if you're really crazy, mummies with Chaos Warriors.. er "Dread Warriors" in the remake). Boom! Much more challenging.

2) Limit gold. Yes, you can make the gold rewards smaller. They may not like this but if simple challenge is your goal, making the wealth more scarce will holds the heroes back. You can also adopt the EU rule and make it so that each room can only be searched ONCE for treasure (as it is, each hero may search, and so the treasure deck is possible to be drained of good cards in each quest, while using this rule means only a portion will likely be found).

3) Limit carrying capacity. Some people suggest limiting each hero to two weapons and they have to wear all the armor they're carrying (not counting artifacts, or maybe counting artifacts if you really want to). If they have more, they have to sell them, trade them, or drop them!

4) Potions expire. Yes, in the EU edition if you didn't use a potion within a quest, you couldn't carry it to the next quest with you. Granted, you also couldn't BUY potions, but it's up to you whether you want to make those expire too, or simply not sell them between quests to begin with.

5) No shopping between quests. I don't like this idea because it takes away a really important and fun aspect of the game, but some have suggested that once the campaign gets going, you're not allowed to shop between quests. If this is the case of course, gold becomes useless. Well, the only purpose gold serves now is as "points" I guess, but at the end of the campaign you'll have big treasure pile to buy more gear for the next expansion, then do without for awhile, etc. No shopping would conflict with the "limited carrying capacity" thing unless you want people to be dropping a trail of gear as they go. Heroes will trade equipment to each other and then drop what they can't carry, traveling light and some pieces of equipment from the Armory won't be found or used until they get into the expansions.

6) Use the Evil Wizard Deck. Let Zargon do stuff when there are no monsters on the board with threat cards. Look it up on this site!

7) Boss dice. You want monsters to be really strong? (You could use these for named "boss" monsters, or any monster). These guys will have very strong attacks and hero-like defense. Every fight threatens to kill someone. Might be overkill, especially in combination with the others. These can be purchased from Etsy or you can make your own.

NONE of these tips are advisable for the extremely broken difficulty Barbarian Quest Pack: The Frozen Horror or Elf Quest Pack: Mage of the Mirror. These are so difficult, you need every bit of gold, shopping, and perk you can for your heroes. You will be hiring mercenaries whenever you can (and they will die like flies) and you'll be lucky to survive if Zargon doesn't pull his punches!

Actually, the difficulty of most of HeroQuest after the first 14 quests doesn't need much to make it challenging. Unless your heroes are overflowing with gold and potions, they will be fairly challenged everywhere else (especially the two I mentioned above, if anything, Zargon may wish to edit those quests to make them a bit easier! removing some of the monsters or downgrading them, removing some of the traps, adding more gold & potions, etc).

Finally, I think what Doug Hopkins said is pretty spot on... that is (other than Kellar's Keep and Return of the Witch Lord) the expansions actually play just fine if you have a beginning set of heroes, rather than one that has lots of gold, potions, artifacts and equipment already.

The exception once again is Frozen Horror and Mage of the Mirror. In theory these were designed for a "fully equipped" (in terms of the Game System) party of heroes, except one. The Elf or Barbarian in those is assumed to be a basic hero... and he or she plays the three solo quests to get equipped. The trouble is those quests are a little too difficult for such a basic hero especially played by a beginner. They're very frustrating and reliant upon luck (assuming Zargon isn't just handing them the victory or they're cheating somehow). These quests could be played with a group (2-3 years is fun, 4 is a bit easy if you make no other changes, though you'll probably want to give extra rewards for the extra players in that case... it's the opposite of trying to make it harder, these expansions are too hard, you're trying to make it easier!).

My group that has played Frozen Horror, to Mage of the Mirror, to Crypt of Perpetual Darkness, I'd say about partway through the Elf quests I thought they had mastered the challenges. They were so powerful (and I gave them many new perks, knowing what they were up against) that I actually started putting in more things to make it more challenging, not less! (I delved back into the old drafts of Mage of the Mirror, which had many more and more powerful monsters for example) and I used my Evil Wizard and Combat cards to the max (the final battle of MOTM for example took something like 3 hours!). From here on, I am either finding ways to part the heroes from their gold or getting them started with new characters for the other expansions. It's still fun. Of course the way we play, on stream, the audience can also buy things for the heroes (or for Zargon) so even if they were penniless and luckless, someone might become their advocate and help them out. Of course as the stream owner I have the ability to tweak how many (and how "expensive" In terms of channel points) those perks cost, so there's still some balance.

Other points:

Frozen Horror from 1992 and the modern edition are basically the same... Avalon Hill realized too late that people understood it was too hard, so they put out "Into the Northlands" a digital quest (the PDF has suggestions on how to make it easier and better... but keep in mind Zargon has to use his planning and discernment to implement these changes).

Mage of the Mirror remake edition is much easier than the 1992 original. Even so, you may still consider tweaking it (Zargon does homework) to make it easier, unless of course you are playing with a group that has saved up mountains of gold and potions (such a group will complete just about anything after awhile, unless they simply give up).

Before playing "Rise of the Dread Moon" or "Jungles of Delthrak" Zargon should STUDY UP on the new rules. He should know the Game System rules by heart, and he should read ahead for the quest about to be played. Read through the Quest book (at least up to and including the quest you're about to play), study the new hero mechanics and the new cards. This is something I can't stress enough. Without it, you'll be debating with yourself how to handle new situations that arise, and wasting time flipping back and forth in the booklet reading things over and moving your cards around. These expansions are clearly much more advanced and complex than previous expansions (especially Rise of the Dread Moon) and they contain optional rules as well, meaning Zargon has to make a choice and can't just simply play as written. The players may feel casual, but Zargon has to be on his toes for these.

The key I think is teaching your players that HeroQuest is very easy to mod and there are many ways to play it, so if they don't like one way, that doesn't mean it has to go on the shelf and disband the party. Good luck!

[Kurgan]

Another thing that could make things tougher... tie character sheets to players. This is the opposite of how I play. I will have a character sheet for the Barbarian and give it to whoever shows up who takes over the Barbarian. Even if that player stops coming to the sessions, that character sheet continues on and people can add to it. You could also take a page out of the First Edition and make character selection dependent upon dice rolls (I assume you're going to be Zargon though, so you could give a hero randomly or you could make it so the highest roller gets to pick first, then the next highest, etc. if someone doesn't like their pick they could switch with someone, if they both agree of course).

BUT what you could do is say as soon as Steve leaves, then the next Barbarian is starting from scratch. Now this doesn't matter if you're always playing with the same group of people. I stream my games and so with remote play you never know who is going to show up (but you always have someone). Those early sessions will be a real learning experience, as you can't just assume you are going to play dozens or hundreds of quests with them, and so ambitious plans for what happens when they cross certain milestones can't be assumed. Hopefully you get your feet wet and find out that you enjoy HeroQuest. If not, there are lots of other games out there that try to do what HeroQuest does, but your mileage may vary of course, depending upon what resources are available. Sometimes you play a game and you never go back to it, while others keep you coming back. The main thing is that you are bonding and having a good time with the people you're with. Here's hoping you find a good fit for your group!

[Parzival]

Things I already do:

Allow the players to alter initiative on their turn instead of following the set pattern based on where they sit. However, this actually makes things easier for the players, as the set pattern order can sometimes produce blocks of LoS or movement if the players aren’t careful.

Things I consider:
To make things harder, rule that a hero can only find traps or secret doors in locations he can physically see from the hero’s position— and other heroes block that line of sight. This will lead to the players less likely to bunch up, which will expose them to more monster attacks.

In First Light I’ve noticed that the quests depart from the rulebook, and require heroes to be in a square actually adjacent to an item of furniture in order to search it. This makes traps more viable, as heroes will actually have to move about the room as part of a search.

One could make trap and secret door searches subject to a hidden Zargon roll, based on hero class— The Barbarian only finds secret doors on shield results, the Dwarf and Wizard only on skull results, and the Elf on any result except a monster shield.
For traps, the Barbarian and Elf find them on skull results, the Wizard on shields, and the Dwarf on any except a monster shield.
This forces the players to be tactical, or accept a risk.

Some sort of forced Wandering Monster rule aside from Treasure checks might be worthwhile. (Interestingly, the Wandering Monster and Hazard results in the Treasure deck made my group of adult players— all experienced RPGers— actually avoid doing Treasure searches— which resulted in them having less gold and fewer potions, which is lethal in the long run!) Others have suggested triggering a Wandering Monster draw from a randomized Monster Deck on any movement result of “Snake Eyes.”

Allowing static monsters to have a possibility of reacting to “noise”— that is, repeated search efforts or combat— in nearby chambers might be interesting. Entirely off the top of my head, if a chamber has a door between it and another chamber or corridor where combat occurs, Zargon could roll an attack die at the start of his turn. Add dice for each hero who has taken a combat action or searched in the adjacent area. On any result of a monster shield, the monsters in the adjacent chamber are alerted, and move through the door (if not blocked by a Hero standing next to it) and attack, if Zargon wishes them to do so. If there are multiple doors, each monster shield rolled can be applied to each door. This would make life VERY difficult for the heroes.

As it is, I will say that in play the game can be challenging for adults RAW— my first session with the aforementioned experienced gamers resulted in a dead Wizard— and that was on the base game’s introductory quest! I was stunned, as I had handily defeated the Companion App solo (using a four hero team) prior to running the quest as Zargon. The game is harder than it first appears to be— and as you get into the expansion quests, that goes double.

Simple isn’t always bad, nor is complex necessarily good. I’ve played other dungeon crawl games with more complexity— Descent, Dungeon Saga, Shadows of Brimstone, the D&D board game line (Wrath of Ashardalon, Castle Ravenloft), and been underwhelmed by the experience. For me, HeroQuest has a much better sweet spot. Not perfect, but close enough!

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Just adding my own to the bunch, you'll certainly having plenty of reading material! HeroQuest Golden Rules

[Parzival]

I will put forth a simpler alternative to my suggested search rules. Instead of different results for different Hero classes, instead just use the Mind Points as the number of dice rolled in a search. Skull or Shield= Any traps/doors are found (whichever is being searched for).
Dwarf gains 1 die when searching for traps, Elf gains 1 die when searching for secret doors. The Wizard, however, only rolls dice equal to half his current Mind Points (rounding up). Barbarian only rolls 2 dice. (Any item or Artifact that boosts Mind Points will allow more search dice to be rolled.)

One will note that the likelihood of finding traps and doors is very high… but not always automatic.

[MonsterMotor]

The rules section of this forum contains many discussions on alternate search mechanisms, including things you propose. The D&D board game also has a nice search mechanism with a dedicated die. You might look at that one, too. I don't use it in my HQ rules, though. The reason is that, generally, I rather recommend not to increase the amount of die rolls in HQ too much, but rather cut down on them to save time, e.g., also use fixed movement. Note that nearly every room or corridor requires to be searched in HQ. So I am mostly fine with the very simple and quick search mechanism in HQ, but I offer an optional search in my ruleset when monsters are present, which does involve a die roll. The players, which are adults and have limited time, happily use this once in a while, but not too often, so it does not slow down the game.