Ye Olde Inn

ok so here it goes... and likely to some resistance.

In my opinion this is by far the most shoddily written "official" pack (closely followed by The Crypt Of Perpetual Darkness) in terms of narrative. It reads as a mediocre fan quest pack (no offense to the author but it really isn't up to par of other official outings) riding as a campaign bonus to have a celebrity guest appearance.

I can presume that AH had some guidelines on what they wanted but there is some major disconnect with the established HQ lore at the point it was released, it almost seemed as AH used this as a 180 to reinvent the HQ world to distance it from GW very quickly. (Prophecy of Telor on the other hand could have been released back in the day with complete synergy into the old world) Also WTF is Silvana about... why does Mentor with the all seeing loretome need a diviner? and then there is The good Orc controversy...

As the quest design is fine and while I could potentially re-write the whole thing - I don't see the point as the basis for the pack just isn't my cup of tea, but what I would like to do is at least correct the artifacts in the quests.

While we did get Fortunes Longsword & Phantom Blade, what this pack missed the most was the opportunity for 4 new elemental themed artifacts for the initial 4 towers - instead it just reused ones from the main game (which if you follow the official play order was only 2 packs ago and almost all of these items would already be in the hands of the heroes).

The other issue is that there is a total of 15 artifacts and in some cases multiple to be found by a single hero in a single occurrence. This alone makes them not so special and are just being given out like candy.

So without starting arguments I am looking for genuine input from people who have played this pack, my initial proposal is bringing the artifact total down to the standard number of 10.

- Fortunes Longsword & Phantom Blade would stay.
- all of the scrolls would go and Swift Wind & Veil of Mist inserted as these are the only two scrolls not available in KK, RTOWL or POT so would allow a full scroll deck to be formalized.
- Orc’s Bane would need to stay in quest 7 as it is a key plot point and also notes if a player already has it to do nothing.

This leaves 5 to go, 4 of which would be new ones to facilitate the 4 elemental requirements of Quest 10 through 13.

This then leaves 1 to go - I was thinking the Talisman of Lore placement in Quest 3 could be suitably replaced with some other sort of magical item found in Nelath’s Tomb.

Any thoughts?

I'll start off by saying I haven't played this yet.

The heroes should definitely still have the Talisman of Lore as long as they're not wandering the dungeons independently. Even if the wearer died, someone should be around to pick it up. This just happened last time when I was playing with my kids. My daughter's Elf had it and died so my son's Barbarian picked up all the Elf's gear. The Elf was revived back to life and her stuff returned to her, but he kept the Talisman as reward.

I don’t think this pack needs any fixing. There are a lot of artifacts and some of them seemed to be placed for no particular reason (like the Talisman of Lore), so some of these could be removed.

Now that the HeroQuest world has been changed to a different set of lore since the remake, I just see this as a stand alone adventure taking place in the same world. Agents of Zargon are everywhere, so there are a lot of threats to deal with. Maybe when Mentor’s main group of heroes are busy elsewhere, Mentor calls upon a new group to deal with this new concern. That could also be why he sends them to Silvana.

Speaking of her, I just figured she was formerly an adventurer or student of Mentor (as Zargon once was), and after her studies or whatever are complete, she is doing her own thing in service to the realm. Why does Mentor require a diviner? Mentor’s insight and knowledge of many things he shouldn’t normally know relies heavily on Loretome. We have seen a few times now that even a powerful artifact such as Loretome can be messed with from outside influences, or it shows what it “wants” to show, sometimes giving incomplete information. PoT comes to mind, and from what I hear so far of the new AtOH the heroes need to find information at the tournament because that information isn’t in Loretome for some reason. A diviner could have some insight into what is going on in the world without having to rely on an item such as Loretome.

Possible explanations aside, SQT seems easy enough for a fresh group of heroes to play. It can be an alternate start to the game if people are tired of playing the GS quests repeatedly over the years. That is probably why a lot of the same artifacts from the GS are featured in this pack. Heroes starting here will have a similar level in power compared to a group finishing the GS, so you can jump into other expansions afterward. It also features a continuous storyline instead of a bunch of random tasks that need to be dealt with. I haven’t started FH yet because I was hoping SQT would be available on the app by now. Its an opportunity for me to play some newer heroes since I haven’t tried the Warlock or the Monk yet.

I had my misgivings about this one, mainly by the word of others (the main issue being their personal mistrust of the author as a D&D guy, fearing this would be a way to "D&D-ify" HQ, to the detriment of the franchise). To this day I haven't yet played any of the quests, only studied the book and read comments from others. We've playtested the Bard (and I've made my own custom aesthetic revamp of the character in the form of an Orc pirate but he also works like how I imagine a Cleric could work in HQ too).

To me, if we were going to fit this set into the lore of HeroQuest, it would be as a rather late stage adventure... the new war against Zargon has raged on, and things are changing. The toll of time and the stress of the conflict are finally starting to catch up with Mentor, hence his need of "help" is maintaining his vigil both against his former student and his communications with the heroes. Zargon's will has also faced serious challenges... and the war isn't going so well for him either, hence his troops are starting to abandon their posts, and defectors are coming through, many disillusioned with his promises of power and that's how the various "neutral/good guy" Orcs are justified. So I think I disagree more with the suggested official placement in the chronology than the existence of the pack itself. As a kid I certainly loved monsters, and the monsters as the bad guys was the accepted norm but I was also super into the idea of having (a few) good guy type monsters, not necessarily in HeroQuest, but in my imagination, so I wouldn't have completely rebelled against the idea of such a thing had it been presented to me that early. I think when Warcraft II came out I rolled my eyes slightly but quickly accepted the idea that maybe once, not so long ago, the Orcs were a noble people, who fell in with the corruption of their leaders and the dark side of magic at a certain stage. Every fantasy fiction that has "orcs" doesn't necessarily have to copy each other. But I understand that if Warhammer Fantasy was the real thing for you, then you'll want that back of course. I don't think I really got those connections until the 2000s at the earliest, growing up in the US (I think it was '98 when I discovered WH 40K, a hobby which seemed way too expensive for my taste, but still didn't know the explicit links with the lore until around then thanks to sites like this ones immediate ancestor Agin's Inn).

I am also of the opinion, and I don't think this is too controversial, that PoT and SQT (like Rogar's Hall) were not written primarily for people who were brand new to HeroQuest, but was targeted at those who played the game in youth, but were (like Stephen Baker when he wrote the other aforementioned quests) returning to the franchise with nostalgia after three decades. Yes, those same people would most likely be introducing it to their kids as well, so you're anticipating veteran players who might have a newbie in tow. Old familiar things with a few new twists mixed in...

Hence it's been a long time for the Heroes, and for the players who controlled them... thus it may not seem so jarring or repetative that they are revisiting old things. I could imagine someone buying the Mythic set and jumping right into these, rather than replaying the other 34 quests first and carrying those characters over. But now that it's in retail, that changes, and you've got people playing it for the first time and wondering "what is the proper order." Difficulty wise I'm taking what others have said and placing it around that same level. I don't have a big problem playing packs out of order, and with difficulty I'm fine with starting with a fresh party of heroes if it seems like they'll be too powerful carrying everything over. Yes, I agree that most Artifacts won't be lost (according to the rules, a lost/stolen artifact comes back early in the next quest, just like a dead hero gets replaced... sometimes I wonder if people remember that!), so in several cases you will end up with duplicates (which I'm not strictly against, to me this is more for the newcomers to a group while the old heroes have everything they could possibly need). Does it make the Artifacts less special? Sure, but for the overall experience, not necessarily for that player. Most of us homebrew, but some do not, so for them they'd otherwise "have to" go back and play that specific quest to get the item, which then it would seem proper to play the quests that came before that, etc. and not everyone is going to say "sure, let's sit down and play 34 quests... so then we can TRY this one). Again, easy to work around, but there are still the "Rules as Written" types who would see this as a real problem and not feel free to just jump in and try it out if that's what they're hearing all their friends on the internet telling them is the "right way." (side note: this is why I'm happy so many of us and even members of AH themselves are telling them DIY, don't be afraid, these suggestions are not set in stone, etc).

I too am about there being multiple parties of heroes (they've introduced enough of them you could image several sets of four setting off in different places, I agree).

The other stuff is a matter of tweaking the various difficulties present in the quests (see the errata lists and other fan suggestions on how to smooth them out). Going into shock in those couple of quests would be rare, but to me it makes more sense to use the ROTWL "unconscious" route if a hero were to run out of BP.

Many have ideas on how to improve these, like so many other things, so I'm curious to see what you come up with, good luck!

I have played this with my brother in 2 sessions. first nine quests was in November and the last five quests we played last week. I quite enjoyed it but it was nothing special. I certainly agree with the post author that the 4 elemental artifact keys should have been original rather than re-using existing atifacts which the Heroes may already have. It also seemed odd that the Elixir of Life could get used before entry into the Spire of Spirits.

I have solo played Crypt of Perpetual Darkness and I really enjoyed that.

Kurgan wrote:As a kid I certainly loved monsters, and the monsters as the bad guys was the accepted norm but I was also super into the idea of having (a few) good guy type monsters, not necessarily in HeroQuest, but in my imagination, so I wouldn't have completely rebelled against the idea of such a thing had it been presented to me that early. I think when Warcraft II came out I rolled my eyes slightly but quickly accepted the idea that maybe once, not so long ago, the Orcs were a noble people, who fell in with the corruption of their leaders and the dark side of magic at a certain stage. Every fantasy fiction that has "orcs" doesn't necessarily have to copy each other.

I've played D&D since the early '80s. I can attest that the idea of typically evil monsters not always being evil has been around since well before our society became so hypersensitive about everything. It was an unusual twist, and often a means to get players to role-play more instead of just roll-playing. Sometimes the players would learn a harsh lesson by discovering they'd slaughtered a group of innocent intelligent beings for no reason.

Personally, I don't understand why having D&D-like elements in HeroQuest is a bad thing, especially considering HQ likely would not even exist had it not been for the roots laid by D&D. Even the Elf and Dwarf being character classes came from the Basic edition D&D that I started with.

Just to elaborate more on my initial post; the overall quest design is fine - it feels like the Artifacts were inserted as an afterthought and the narrative (as with COPT) feels like it was thrown together for the entire point of quickly distancing the re-release from the 1989 lore and not actually taking the time to approach the whole project with an actual vision of a cohesive world to base it in.

This isn't a throwback to Warhammer/Old World elitism, its my personal stance on Orcs in fantasy in general - their function in the old world setting originates from Tolkien of which their basis appeals to me the most - being an inherently evil race that exists as a mockery of "good" and a corruption of nature.

It seems in the AH heroquest world, the only thing is is actually evil is Zargon and the Frozen Horror... everything else is bad because it is under the influence of Zargon (with little exception outside of this)...

Kurgan wrote:To me, if we were going to fit this set into the lore of HeroQuest, it would be as a rather late stage adventure...

This makes a bit more sense, I guess we'll have to wait until AH wind up support for the game and every thing is said and done so we can collate all of the story and align things where they fit best.

Kurgan wrote:I too am about there being multiple parties of heroes (they've introduced enough of them you could image several sets of four setting off in different places, I agree).

I like the idea that Mentor is actually just this old eccentric crackpot that lures would-be adventurers into the fold and actually has no idea what he's doing - or that he is continually on the search for the "right" heroes and has sent hundreds to their deaths in the search! NPC's (tavern dwellers etc) in our games call him "Mentor the Mad".

Kurgan wrote:The other stuff is a matter of tweaking the various difficulties present in the quests (see the errata lists and other fan suggestions on how to smooth them out). Going into shock in those couple of quests would be rare, but to me it makes more sense to use the ROTWL "unconscious" route if a hero were to run out of BP.

In my games we use 1MP as shock and 0MP as "unconscious".

I guess all in all, I am most disappointed in AH for not taking the opportunity in the retail releases of this and POT to turn them into really great packs, it literally wouldn't have taken much - and would have been another great piece of HQ legacy. particularly as a LOT of people had already given their feedback from the Mythic release.

Footnote:
POT is a great quest pack, they just dropped the ball in making the retail release something more than just a quest book and some different colored minis, there was ample opportunity to make it something more.

Personally I came to this conclusion: play SQT like alternative GS, I think most of us played GS multiple time, so If you want restart again play this expansion instead, I haven't a better idea

Maalicia_Ironhoof wrote: its my personal stance on Orcs in fantasy in general - their function in the old world setting originates from Tolkien of which their basis appeals to me the most - being an inherently evil race that exists as a mockery of "good" and a corruption of nature.

It seems in the AH heroquest world, the only thing is is actually evil is Zargon and the Frozen Horror... everything else is bad because it is under the influence of Zargon (with little exception outside of this)...

In fairness, Tolkien's work actually establishes that Sauron literally created the orcs. As far as HQ goes, I don't believe any edition has stated this to be the case with Zargon. I would also point out that not being inherently evil is not the same as not being evil. Certainly most orc societies and thus individuals are evil of their own choice. They weren't corrupted by Zargon so much as they chose to side with the enemy of their enemies. The fact that exceptions to the rule exist does not invalidate the rule, it just makes one think a bit more about the consequences of their actions.

Personally, I find a black-and-white world without nuance to be a bit stifling. But then, my all-time favorite D&D character that I've played was a military scout/spy type (assassin class) who's character flaw was "Moral Ambiguity; I have no qualms about doing the wrong thing for the right reasons." Perhaps the finest moment of his career was opportunistically mercy killing a captive NPC the party had been sent to recover, then helping pay for his resurrection later. It was the most efficient way to simultaneously free the NPC and goad the boss enemy into making a mistake. But in a strict good/evil binary world, slaying an unarmed and helpless man would mean my character may as well have had green skin.