Hero Substitutions & Shopping

[Sonic Whammy]

Hello to all once again.

So, I've noticed the longer I've played with my kids since the game came back, there's a logistic question that comes up regarding that reset period where one quest in a pack ends and the next one begins. And with the advent of new heroes in the reboot, the question is now twofold:

1) When the story of a quest suggests that you're going deeper into a dungeon or geographic location, how exactly is one able to visit the Armory, Alchemist's Shop, etc.?
2) In an expansion to the first question, when also can a full surviving party give certain heroes a break and have others step in?

Now, the first question has been answered in the new packs Prophecy of Telor and Rise of the Dread Moon, as there are some quests where you're specifically told that you can't shop at the end. In those cases, that would also answer the second question to say that the party you have at the time has to stick together into the next connecting dungeon. But there are many quests, especially from the original packs, where if you follow the story as Mentor tells it, it also feels like you shouldn't be able to reach a shop, or at the very least can't swap heroes (and I just realized this would also impact the whole mercenary recruitment in Frozen Horror and one day Wizards of Zargon).

I get it, it's fantasy realm logic, it's never going to totally make sense. And I'd actually love to hear how some of you try to justify it. BUT, I have at least been trying to answer the second question as my kids go through Prophecy of Telor now. And after giving it some thought, here's where I stand on each pack so far on when and where it is logistically possible to change your party. I welcome any ideas anyone has to correct this list with some fair justification.

HERO SUBSTITUTION POINTS
THE GATHERING STORM - Technically after every quest since they're independent of each other, but as Mentor says the heroes need to finish all 14 to be considered Champions, you can argue no subs allowed
KELLAR'S KEEP - NO SUBSTITUTIONS
PROPHECY OF TELOR - After Quest 5 when you return to Mentor, and any quest thereafter where you're allowed to shop, EXCEPT for the hero that starts the campaign with the Talisman, he has to go the distance.
SPIRIT QUEEN'S TORMENT - After Quests 3, 6 & 9, as the story suggests that you return to Silvana.
RETURN OF THE WITCH LORD - NO SUBSTITUTIONS
THE FROZEN HORROR - NO SUBSTITUTIONS
THE MAGE OF THE MIRROR - After Quests 4, 5 & 6, as those dungeons are independent locations. Quests 7-10 are all part of Sinestra's stronghold that you go deeper into each time.
RISE OF THE DREAD MOON - Any quest where it says you can't shop, you can't change your party. All other quests are allowed.
THE CRYPT OF PERPETUAL DARKNESS - Quests 1 & 2 have you go to your hideout, so it's presumed your teammates are there. The rest of the quests appear to be interconnected, but #9 is possibly a new location compared to when #8 ends, so maybe #8 can be a swap point as well. Thumbs up or down on this one, let me know.
AGAINST THE ORGE HORDE - NO SUBSTITUTIONS
WIZARDS OF ZARGON - ALL QUESTS - Every quest is an independent location.

So that's what I've got. Agree/Disagree? All opinions welcome.

[SirRick]

Unless the book specifically says you can’t go shopping for items, it should be allowed. It doesn’t make much sense sometimes, but I don’t think the designers put that much thought into it. When are you supposed to buy then new potions introduced in each quest pack? I would just try to find a way to explain it. In Kellar’s Keep you could say they meet a dwarf merchant savaging what he can from the ruins. In Return of the Witch Lord you could say Mentor takes to-go orders every so often or something.

For switching out heroes, I would do it when it makes sense thematically, or of course if a hero dies. It doesn’t make sense if you get captured in one quest, and the next one everyone is a different hero. Or in Prophecy of Telor, whoever has the Talisman would have to finish the book with that hero.

[Sonic Whammy]

I would just try to find a way to explain it. In Kellar’s Keep you could say they meet a dwarf merchant savaging what he can from the ruins. In Return of the Witch Lord you could say Mentor takes to-go orders every so often or something.

LOL @ to-go orders! Did they call it DungeonDash or something like that? The thought is so hilarious, I love it!

[Kurgan]

After every quest I allow shopping and/or hero substitutions unless it directly says otherwise in the booklet. If an explanation is needed, I can make one up, or just rest assured that "a wizard did it." To me the beauty of a game like this is so much doesn't have to be worried about, like whether the Dwarf got indigestion from that tavern food, or the Elf's back taxes, or the Barbarian's marital problems back home. I mean sure, if you're the sort of group that has their experience ENHANCED by such things, I hope your Zargon plays to that, but otherwise no point. You end up rested and re-supplied just enough to make it to the next adventure with the gold coins they say you have and the stuff you wanted to buy happens to be the stuff available at the time after every other incidental thing was already accounted for. Maybe the Emperor (or King) paid you for the rest, or some independent donor or patron footed the bill. I could easily imagine that the Heroes carry food and bedding and lighting equipment with them that is simply not accounted for in the game's rules. They don't have to make stops to go to the bathroom (that happens offscreen, and doesn't interfere with their duties). Nobody is starving or freezing to death between game sessions (no time goes by in the "world" between adventures unless it says so).

I figure if a player decides they want a different hero they can just have a different hero and pass whatever items to them that they want from their previous inventory. Any excuse will do as to why that previous hero isn't there, just like we don't worry about why Mentor didn't send every available Hero all at once (then again, maybe he sends groups of four on different missions in different regions simultaneously? I mean, why not?) If little features like role-playing travel and haggling with the merchants, so be it, but I leave most of that out so we can focus on the roaming and the treasure searching and the fighting and the magic hurling.

A lot of this stuff, like the "official order of quest packs" is all fine and dandy if you have the lofty goal of playing ALL of the published quests with the same group of people in a reasonable span of time (and their patience and taste in gameplay will remain static and fulfilled that whole time), but many of us simply can't hope for something like that, so character sheets will change hands, just as heroes will die and be replaced by heroes who are basically just like them (sans a few pieces of gear, and a new name).

Granted, the new heroes generally don't have much official explanation as to how they need to be used in the quests not originally designed for them (though the Companion App gives some easy examples... just swap out one or more of the four for them, and I guess fudge things if a specific quest calls for a specific hero you no longer have). I take it as that gives me the freedom to use (or not use) them as I see fit.

But each to their own. I think it's interesting to hear what people want. Clearly there are a ton of people out there who have said they want NOT to be able to shop between quests, so the designers at Avalon Hill took that into consideration and gave mid-quest shopping in several adventures of Rise of the Dread Moon based on fan feedback. Does it make any more or less sense that you can do this, vs. leaving the quest area to visit a shop in a town or with some traveling vendor? A lot of popular rules that people hold to don't make quite as much sense as those who take off the nostalgia goggles can see (for instance, the old EU rule that cards limit supply of equipment, that was officially rescinded in the Adventure Design Kit). Or people will say Death Saves are unrealistic (but magical healing of injuries is still a-okay, as is replacing a character with an identical character next adventure, or allowing an "unconscious" hero to miraculously be safe and normal in the next adventure so long as at least one other member of the party succeeded, or mercenaries are unable to use anything but their starting equipment and magically hold onto gold you give them, etc. etc.). Many things are meant to evoke and simulate things in other popular fiction, not so much strict realism to ancient earth history or the known laws of physics.

BUT, I say if something makes the game more fun for your group, go for it (whatever that might be, not just nerfing the crossbow or adding more RPG lite elements in certain areas).

I also see a basic need to be able to insert a hero for a one off session, because somebody new showed up that might not be back for awhile (if ever). Maybe that means bolting on a fifth wheel that otherwise "breaks the rules" like a second Barbarian, or a Bard who showed up literally for no other reason than that you needed another character in there for them.

[Sonic Whammy]

Oh, absolutely, Kurgan. I completely get that the rules of the game have some flex in places. That's why they say in every installment of the game for Zargon (that's me) to judge how they best feel situations that the RAW don't cover should go. I just found myself thinking about this more since the revival because we have more than 4 heroes now. It's all fun to us in the end, I just figured I'd see if my logic made sense to anyone else.

[SpacemanR]

Now that I have started playing again (I played the game when it first came out, and was only ever aware of Kellar's Keep and Return of the Witch Lord existing beyond the base game), I enjoy the large pool of available heroes. As Zargon now, player death during a quest requires that player to choose a new hero for the next quest. They then stick with that one until they die, at which point they switch again (including back to a hero they played previously).

So, for example, a party with the original four heroes loses the Dwarf and Elf during a quest. For the next quest, those characters choose the Monk and Explorer. A couple quests later, the Barbarian dies. That player can choose any of the currently available heroes for the next quest, including the Dwarf and Elf.

[Kurgan]

The heroes sent off a messenger bird earlier, with a list of items they requested. Later, a merchant travels in secret to them with exactly the items they can afford according to their requests. He takes the gold and leaves. He's under Mentor's magical protection so there's no way to ambush and steal from this merchant.

Invisible porters (non-combatants) carry all of the Heroes' stuff that they need to survive in between quests not explicitly listed in their potion/gold/equipment/artifact inventory and also explains how they can carry everything they're carrying and still are able to perform in battle.

[Parzival]

A tribe of neutral goblins (who go by the name the Far-In-Guys) have set up vending machines on all the stair landings in the various multi-level dungeons, confident that adventurers flush with newfound gold will gladly drop it all in a slot and pull the levers for whatever goodies are displayed. It’s been very lucrative so far, though they still haven’t figured out how to get Twinkies® in the thing without being smushed by the Battle Axe release system.

[wallydubbs]

Although Keller's Keep and Return of the Witch Lord Quest Books say the heroes may go to the armory between quests, some of us take a more thematic approach and restrict the inconsistency.
It can be genuinely agreed that despite the name changes of Chaos to Dread and a few accidental missing doors in the quest books Keller's Keep, Return of the Witch Lord and Frozen Horror are carbon copies of their original counterparts.

Fresher minds prevailed in the newer expansions and put some restrictions on going to the armory when thematically available.

I, personally, wouldn't allow trips to the armory and alchemist shops in the linear quest packs. Keller's Keep & Return of the Witch Lord are easy enough for the heroes to get by on survival mode. But as Zargon if I see the heroes struggling I might add a few artifacts or treasures to help them.
Frozen Horror, however, is a broken quest pack and it needs all the doctoring it can get. I allow 5 heroes to play this quest pack and I restrict visitations to the armory/alchemist shop. When it comes to Mercenaries there are certain rooms in this quest pack where the heroes are supposed to fight mercenaries. To make the quest pack easier I tell the heroes the mercenaries were sent up the mountain earlier and got separated from the other groups, the heroes may purchase them mid-quest instead of fighting them. This cancels out the unnecessary trips the heroes would need to make to town while scaling a mountain, while at the same time removes a few unnecessary enemies. Also just to make this quest pack easier I limit Wandering Monsters to 1. And I break up the double quest into 2 separate quests, running Quest 10 first, making the heroes grab to crystal key first and foremost. The double quest is much too difficult.

The smaller expansions are generally easier, and if you have more than the 4 basic heroes, that's even better. When playing with a group I'd allow the heroes to trade out and swap heroes between quests of the Game System so the players get a little taste on how to play each hero. There will be a separate and consistent party that runs First Light. So by the end of the Game System we'll have 4 heroes that are close to if not already maxing out (from First Light) and several heroes that may have participated in a few quests, so by that point they might have at least 1 piece of equipment.

The small box quest packs (Keller's Keep, Prophecy of Telor, Spirit Queen's Torment & Return of the Witch Lord) are easy by comparison to the other big box quest packs. So after the Game System & First Light the heroes go back into the hero pool and the players can mix & match.
Despite us having a quest order, having different groups of heroes allows Mentor to quash Zargon's plans simultaneously. So Mentor can send one group through Keller's Keep to rescue the King while another group aids the bearer of the Talisman of Lore, and completes Prophecy of Telor.
Spirit Queen's Torment is the easiest quest pack, that also gives out the main artifacts like the Game System and First Light. So if you have another group of heroes that still haven't tastes battle, send them through this one.
By the time you get to Against the Ogre Hoard the heroes should be mostly maxed out to play the harder quest packs. Mix & Match again after Return of the Witch Lord. You may need to add a gold reward for the heroes who complete Return of the Witch Lord, or let them find the cache of gold taken from them in Quest 5/6.

Some heroes will die along the way (I lost an Elf in the Fire Mage Quest; the Explorer was lost in Frozen Horror; the Wizard's pet Wolf died in Mage of the Mirror (I allow 5 heroes in this quest pack too). It just adds for better storytelling.

[Kurgan]

And just like real vending machines, if you try to beat up on it to get free stuff, you risk the whole thing falling on top of you for massive damage!

If you shoot it with a crossbow to get the gold coins back... and you're wrong, then you'll have to answer to the Coca-Cola company!