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Evolving D&D Classes

Discuss general topics relating to HeroQuest that don't fit well in the categories below.

Evolving D&D Classes

Postby Davane » April 6th, 2021, 5:25 am

cornixt wrote:I think that both were very much influenced by early DnD classes that were mixed between human professions and race. My set had the following: Cleric, Fighter, Magic User, Thief, Dwarf, Elf, Halfling.


That's the line up for Basic D&D, which had been out for almost a decade, seperated from AD&D. Apparently, Gygax worked on AD&D, whilst Arneson worked on Basic D&D and the Known World, which saw a revival around the time of HeroQuest. The Basic D&D line would be wound up by Wizards of the Coast in 1998, allowing for 3rd Edition to use the name Dungeons and Dragons, rather than Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, as 1st and 2nd Edition AD&D had done, much to the confusion of people who didn't understand the difference.

If you are truly interested, the Original D&D set started with just the classes Fighting Man (Fighter), Magic User (Wizard/Mage), and Cleric. Thief (Rogue) was added in the first supplement as a new Class, whilst Paladin was added as a subtype of Fighting Man. The second supplement brought Monks and Assassins, whilst the third supplement brought the Druid. The third supplement also brought psionics, which originally weren't a class at all. Of the original three D&D classes, only Fighting Man and Magic User came from 2nd edition Chainmail, both of which were from the Fantasy Supplement by Gygax, where they were referred to as Heroes and Wizards, respectively.

There were three editions of Basic D&D, not including the revised edition that was in print around the time of HeroQuest (the Black Box edition). These were the Holmes, B/X, and BECMI editions. Here's where Dwarves, Elves, and Halflings officially became classes, as in OD&D, they were races that had limits to what classes they could be (as would become the format of AD&D). It's easy to see how races became classes in Basic D&D, since they were mostly limited to Fighting Men, except for Elves, which could advance as both a Fighting Man AND a Magic User, but only in one class at a time. They would become the first Multiclassed Characters of D&D, but in Basic D&D, it was simply easier to create a new class that combined Fighting Man and Magic User for the Elf.

BECMI, by the way, is short for Basic, Expert, Companion, Master, and Immortal, which were the titles of the Basic D&D Sets as they were released, each set expanding the game somewhat. Originally, the Basic D&D set was released as the Holmes version which covered levels 1-3, and the line up of 7 classes of Fighting Man, Magic User, Cleric, Thief, Dwarf, Elf, and Halfling was created.

The Holmes version of Basic D&D would be updated again to be the Basic set, with an accompanying Expert set (hence B/X version, sort for Basic / eXpert). There was a line of modules released under the B-series and X-series, depending on which sets were needed, and it was the the Expert set that gave birth to the Known World setting of D&D (which would later become Mystera). The B/X version was also known as the Moldvay-Cook version after the two authors of the rulebooks, and the Expert Set would extend Basic D&D to allow characters to grow to up to 14th level, becoming name level at 9 in most cases. Here, racial classes were given level caps, which matched the level caps given in OD&D and AD&D.

The final, BECMI edition of Basic D&D would see the Basic and Expert sets revised once again, and extended even further with the Companion, Master, and Immortal sets. The Companion set extended the game to level 25, with rules for holding castles and ruling kingdoms. The Companion would also (re)introduce the Druid, this time as a choice for a Neutral Cleric at name level (9th). Dwarves, Elves, and Halflings would be allowed to advance beyond their maximum levels, instead gaining ranks for how much XP they earnt after maxing out, is what were essentially pseudo-levels. A series of Companion modules would also be released, using the C-series product line.

The Master set would allow characters to reach up to 36th level, and start them on their quest for immortality. The final level of complexity was added to the game, but no new classes as such. There were also a line of M-series Modules to accompany the set, featuring the immortal Alphaks, who became a notorious antagonist in the Known World. Mystics would also be introduced as an optional Class, which would advance as Fighters. Not a lot of details on Mystics were originally given, and this would be updated in the D&D Rules Cyclopedia.

The Immortal set saw the players become gods, and pretty much threw everything out of the window with a new set of rules for Immortals. There were a few modules in the I-series for the Immortals set, but I don't think it was very popular.

Various supplements would also include a host of other classes, the most notable being a Rake, which was an honourable thief that acted more like a swashbuckler, a non-magic using Elf variant, and several classes for other humanoids (Goblins, Orcs, Kobolds, and so on).

When Revised Basic D&D was released (The black box edition), it was essentially Basic edition, but the scope for Basic play was raised to 5th level. Meanwhile, all of the BECMI rules apart from the Immortals set would be compiled into the D&D Rules Cyclopedia, and it is here that the Mystic finally gets a full write up as an optional class similar to the Druid. However, unlike the Druid, the Mystic started at 1st level and was limited to 16th. Interestingly, for Revised Basic D&D, the setting was going to be the Known World (along with the Hollow World), which was presented in the D&D Rules Cyclopedia. However, the first boxed module for Revised D&D, Dragons Lair, was set in a renamed form of the Known World (same map, different names), and then from the second boxed module and other products in the line featured Thunder Rift. Interestingly enough, I recall at least one product where you could go from Thunder Rift to the Known World, but I can't remember what it is...

Meanwhile, Advanced D&D 1st edition was going it's own way, with races and classes separate, as it's own game under TSR. AD&D 1st edition brought back the Assassin from OD&D, as well as introducing us to the Ranger, which was another Fighter subclass; the Illusionist, which was a Magic User subclass with their own separate spell list; and the Bard, which was originally a very specialised form of multiclass character which would combine Fighter, Thief, and Druid levels before becoming a Bard.

AD&D 2nd Edition, meanwhile, revised the mess that was AD&D 1st edition, turning the Bard into their own class, giving us Specialist Wizards (which Illusionist was absorbed into), and Priest Spheres for specialised priests (which absorbed the druid). Beyond the rulebooks, we got kits - lots and lots of kits. Kits were basically prepackaged modifications for existing classes. Whilst most kits were simple, some kits like the Barbarian, the Monk, and the Sorcerer would go on to resemble their own classes in the end.

It wouldn't be until the turn of the century until we got 3rd Edition D&D, with it canonical lineup of classes: Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer, and Wizard. Supplements would provide more classes, but only the Warlock was notable enough to make it as a core class by 5th edition. 4th Edition would briefly see Warlord as a class, but in 5th Edition, the Warlord was absorbed by the Fighter to become the Battle Master Martial Archetype.

That gives us what we see today as the D&D Classes: Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer, Warlock, and Wizard.

Going back to the time HQ was released, Basic D&D Classes had the Cleric, Fighter, Magic-User, Thief as Human classes, Dwarf, Elf, and Halfling as Demi-Human classes, and Druid and Mystic as optional classes. Meanwhile 2nd Edition AD&D had the Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Illusionist, Mage, Paladin, Ranger, and Thief as classes, with the Druid and the Illusionist being examples of a Specialised Priest and a Specialist Wizard, respectively, whilst the Bard was considered a subset of Rogue, just as Paladins and Rangers were subsets of Warriors. I have the revised version of the 2nd Edition AD&D Rulebook, which includes the interesting foreword that it is NOT Third edition, which would come some five years later the initial printing of the Revised Players Handbook in 1995...

So there you have it, the interesting growth of core characters in D&D, from it's humble beginnings as the Fantasy Supplement in Chainmail featuring Heroes (which fought equivalent to FOUR fighting men, the default unit in Chainmail) and Wizards (Heroes with magical artillery, basically), inspired by the works of fiction authors like Tolkien, all the way to what we have now in 5th edition, which includes the Warlock as a core class (the Warlock sort of made it into the 4th edition as a core class, but the classes were split between several books, and is significantly different from 3rd and 5th editions that sometimes, it's not worth mentioning it... (the first PHB for 4th edition covered the Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Warlock, Warlord, and Wizard, and also had the privilege of giving us "Roles" of Controller, Defender, Leader, and Striker...)

Okay, that went off way longer than expected...
Last edited by Daedalus on April 22nd, 2021, 9:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Split topic and renamed from The Stephen Baker Interview
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Re: Evolving D&D Classes

Postby iKarith » April 7th, 2021, 11:23 am

Davane wrote:So there you have it, the interesting growth of core characters in D&D, from it's humble beginnings as the Fantasy Supplement in Chainmail featuring Heroes (which fought equivalent to FOUR fighting men, the default unit in Chainmail) and Wizards (Heroes with magical artillery, basically), inspired by the works of fiction authors like Tolkien, all the way to what we have now in 5th edition, which includes the Warlock as a core class (the Warlock sort of made it into the 4th edition as a core class, but the classes were split between several books, and is significantly different from 3rd and 5th editions that sometimes, it's not worth mentioning it... (the first PHB for 4th edition covered the Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Warlock, Warlord, and Wizard, and also had the privilege of giving us "Roles" of Controller, Defender, Leader, and Striker...)

Okay, that went off way longer than expected...


We really only had the Player's Handbook and DMG, along with the Monsterous Manual to work with for source material when I was a kid, so we had bards, clerics, fighters, rangers, rogues, wizards, and anything else was a negotiated specialization. We knew specific rules for other classes existed, including those that were specializations or mixes of others … but since we didn't have them, we ended up just making it work.

I remember we thought it was dumb that you had to explicitly memorize two copies of a spell if you thought you might use it twice. We basically adopted an n-per-day for each level system which I understand is now standard. We had to think fast when the wizard had a chance to rest, but was without his spellbook. We decided he'd retain spells he'd used the day before, but any he hadn't he'd be at risk of forgetting. Try it and find out! Like 50% failure rate, and fair chance of failure going wild. A spell used successfully was retained. One failed wastes the slot and the spell is gone til you get a couple hours with your book. Use it or lose it! … in a place where being caught using it was death.
<InSpectreRetro> All hail Zargon!!! Morcar only has 1BP.


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Re: Evolving D&D Classes

Postby Davane » April 8th, 2021, 2:18 am

iKarith wrote:I remember we thought it was dumb that you had to explicitly memorize two copies of a spell if you thought you might use it twice. We basically adopted an n-per-day for each level system which I understand is now standard. We had to think fast when the wizard had a chance to rest, but was without his spellbook. We decided he'd retain spells he'd used the day before, but any he hadn't he'd be at risk of forgetting. Try it and find out! Like 50% failure rate, and fair chance of failure going wild. A spell used successfully was retained. One failed wastes the slot and the spell is gone til you get a couple hours with your book. Use it or lose it! … in a place where being caught using it was death.


It's only been standard since 4th edition, which was when D&D decided to go through it's dumb World of Warcraft stage. Fifth edition would see a return to the d20/3.x version of the rules, but now all spellcasters use spell slots rather than spell memorization, so the differences between the Sorcerer and the Wizard have been watered down even further. I believe Pathfinder 2nd Edition STILL uses Vancian magic for Wizards... However, it's still very much a D&D-ism overall, and a way to give your game that OSR/D&D vibe rather than generic fantasy. Pretty much EVERY OTHER fantasy roleplaying game uses some form of spell points/spell slots mechanic, which D&D reserved for Psionics...
"The HeroQuest World is loosely based on the Warhammer World which is the copyright of Games Workshop and is used by their permission."

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Re: Evolving D&D Classes

Postby iKarith » April 8th, 2021, 7:02 pm

I totally missed out on 3rd edition—although I'd swear in the world where it was spelled Bearenstein, there was a short time that 3E books existed as that sill had a white and blue "Advanced" logo on them, and we scoffed that this was needed because SOME people still had 2E books that were still intact, despite the incredibly cheap binding the money-grubbing bastards at TSR had them made with for the sole purpose of ensuring we'd need new ones sooner than later.

I no longer believe TSR actually made the books cheaply on purpose to sell replacements more quickly of course. (I mean I wouldn't put it past Hasbro to do that, but it seems to me that the books in more recent decades are actually made a little better, if anything…)
<InSpectreRetro> All hail Zargon!!! Morcar only has 1BP.


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