Ye Olde Inn

For those unfamiliar with the expression: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GuideDangIt

I thought a bit about playing the game way back in the 90s and seeing some of the quests in PDFs of the old books, and I remember some of the more devious elements that players really had no method of knowing about. Most prominent examples that stick out in my mind include:

Main Game Quest 12 - Barak Tor

Partway through the quest, [spoiler]rocks fall and..no, not everyone dies but: the path back to the exit is cut off[/spoiler]. Then, towards the end, a room with the recently awakened Witch Lord can be opened. He's weak and weary from his recent hibernation, but is invulnerable to all damage . It's actually possible to move him to cut off the path that connects the final room the first , rendering the quest unwinnable.

Return of the Witch Lord Quest 2 - The Cold Halls

There's a room with a tomb in it, and if a Treasure search is carried out, stuff that permanently destroys the Orc's Bane and Borin's Armor flies out . Major in my opinion.

Return of the Witch Lord Quest 3 - The Silent Passages

You can destroy the Death Mist with the Tempest Spell or the Spirit Blade, but who's going to try that without some kind of in-game clue about it?

Edit: Grr..Spoiler tags not working!

Super Saiyan Musashi wrote:For those unfamiliar with the expression: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GuideDangIt

I thought a bit about playing the game way back in the 90s and seeing some of the quests in PDFs of the old books, and I remember some of the more devious elements that players really had no method of knowing about. Most prominent examples that stick out in my mind include:

Main Game Quest 12 - Barak Tor

Partway through the quest, [spoiler]rocks fall and..no, not everyone dies but: the path back to the exit is cut off[/spoiler]. Then, towards the end, a room with the recently awakened Witch Lord can be opened. He's weak and weary from his recent hibernation, but is invulnerable to all damage . It's actually possible to move him to cut off the path that connects the final room the first , rendering the quest unwinnable.

I'd hope a good evil wizard player would let him be pushed back a square with a good combat roll, or similar.

Failing that, I hope somebody's got Pass Through Rock. "Well guys, it's been fun, but I guess this is goodbye..."

Super Saiyan Musashi wrote:Return of the Witch Lord Quest 2 - The Cold Halls

There's a room with a tomb in it, and if a Treasure search is carried out, stuff that permanently destroys the Orc's Bane and Borin's Armor flies out . Major in my opinion.

Insert gif of Tim Curry saying "Ooh, nasty!"

This was added for the North American edition--it's not in the original EU edition (as far as I remember).

The other evil bit in RotWL, about permanently losing gold, was in the EU version, but was apparently made twice as nasty in the NA version. In the EU edition only the Dwarf and Wizard lost their gold, whereas I hear everyone loses it in the NA edition.

Super Saiyan Musashi wrote:Return of the Witch Lord Quest 3 - The Silent Passages

You can destroy the Death Mist with the Tempest Spell or the Spirit Blade, but who's going to try that without some kind of in-game clue about it?

The players would have known about it if I'd played this adventure as a kid, because I hadn't yet grasped the idea that you were meant to keep some things secret from the players. As soon as the Death Mist appeared I'd have dutifully explained how it could be defeated, in the same way that I'd explain any boardgame rule.

(This is one thing I appreciate about the NA edition--it takes time to explain to young Zargons not to give away all the secrets.)

Assuming the players did figure out how to destroy the Mist, on the principle of 'try everything', there's a REALLY nasty follow-up in the last Quest. Those magical Orc Statues... [SPOILER REDACTED BY ORDER OF THE WITCH LORD]


In the UK expansion Against the Ogre Horde there are quite a few Guide Dang Its. Mostly rooms containing nothing but an empty treasure chest, a Zombie, and a falling block that will trap you forever if you dare to go inside. Ah, Ogre humour.

(Hmm, spoiler tags aren't working for me either.)

Zenithfleet wrote:
I'd hope a good evil wizard player would let him be pushed back a square with a good combat roll, or similar.

Failing that, I hope somebody's got Pass Through Rock. "Well guys, it's been fun, but I guess this is goodbye..."

Yea definitely. I had the impression like he could not be dealt any real damage but it's not like he's the Blob or the Juggernaut (ie: too heavy to move/stop). The PTR is one way, but even still, that leaves 3 dead, and if my EWP decreed that meant they all get reset to starting gear, I'd ragequit or something similar.

Zenithfleet wrote:Insert gif of Tim Curry saying "Ooh, nasty!"

This was added for the North American edition--it's not in the original EU edition (as far as I remember).

The other evil bit in RotWL, about permanently losing gold, was in the EU version, but was apparently made twice as nasty in the NA version. In the EU edition only the Dwarf and Wizard lost their gold, whereas I hear everyone loses it in the NA edition.

I saw this discussed in the other section of the Forum. I could only allow the tomb trap if there was some kind of clue about it. Normally, the proper M.O. for gaming is to search thoroughly, lest you miss a powerful item. The gold loss isn't as bad since by then the team probably has anything from the store they could ever want, but still kinda annoying. I think most official rulings say you can still shop between quests in the expansions despite them being dungeon crawls, so if players have a chance to spend it before the robbery, it's okay.

Zenithfleet wrote:The players would have known about it if I'd played this adventure as a kid, because I hadn't yet grasped the idea that you were meant to keep some things secret from the players. As soon as the Death Mist appeared I'd have dutifully explained how it could be defeated, in the same way that I'd explain any boardgame rule.

(This is one thing I appreciate about the NA edition--it takes time to explain to young Zargons not to give away all the secrets.)

Assuming the players did figure out how to destroy the Mist, on the principle of 'try everything', there's a REALLY nasty follow-up in the last Quest. Those magical Orc Statues... [SPOILER REDACTED BY ORDER OF THE WITCH LORD]

Yea I think this is another one where some kind of cryptic in-game clue would be reasonable. Not a total giveaway, but something that implies that Death Mists can be dissipated somehow.

Zenithfleet wrote:In the UK expansion Against the Ogre Horde there are quite a few Guide Dang Its. Mostly rooms containing nothing but an empty treasure chest, a Zombie, and a falling block that will trap you forever if you dare to go inside. Ah, Ogre humour.

(Hmm, spoiler tags aren't working for me either.)

Yike; now that is a death! I'd demand a penalty-free restart option for that set if I were to ever play it.

Super Saiyan Musashi wrote:For those unfamiliar with the expression: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GuideDangIt

I thought a bit about playing the game way back in the 90s and seeing some of the quests in PDFs of the old books, and I remember some of the more devious elements that players really had no method of knowing about. Most prominent examples that stick out in my mind include:

Main Game Quest 12 - Barak Tor

Partway through the quest, rocks fall and..no, not everyone dies but: the path back to the exit is cut off. Then, towards the end, a room with the recently awakened Witch Lord can be opened. He's weak and weary from his recent hibernation, but is invulnerable to all damage . It's actually possible to move him to cut off the path that connects the final room the first , rendering the quest unwinnable.

I see the unstoppable threat as a fun twist rather than a Guide Dangit. The Heroes already know they can't backtrack. Then they are told the Witch Lord can't be harmed and they must run. Clearly, they must find an alternative exit (if it hasn't been found already.)

With the Witch Lord's movement of 1, the Heroes should have no problem out-pacing their pursuer and discovering the way out. But if the Heroes should allow themselves to be cut-off, they still have options. Pass Through Rock has already been mentioned.

Another Hero could use Veil of Mist to get by the blocking maneuver. But the Ring of Return, gotten in the previous Quest, can get the wearer and any visible Heroes to the Stairway.

Super Saiyan Musashi wrote:Return of the Witch Lord Quest 2 - The Cold Halls

There's a room with a tomb in it, and if a Treasure search is carried out, stuff that permanently destroys the Orc's Bane and Borin's Armor flies out . Major in my opinion.

Another topic, Quest 2, artifact loss!!!, also discussed this. My suggested solutions are found in the 9th post.

Daedalus wrote:I see the unstoppable threat as a fun twist rather than a Guide Dangit. The Heroes already know they can't backtrack. Then they are told the Witch Lord can't be harmed and they must run. Clearly, they must find an alternative exit (if it hasn't been found already.)

With the Witch Lord's movement of 1, the Heroes should have no problem out-pacing their pursuer and discovering the way out. But if the Heroes should allow themselves to be cut-off, they still have options. Pass Through Rock has already been mentioned.

Another Hero could use Veil of Mist to get by the blocking maneuver. But the Ring of Return, gotten in the previous Quest, can get the wearer and any visible Heroes to the Stairway.

I took another look at the Quest Book PDF on Hasbro's site for this one, and in light of it, I do agree that this is a bit less of a GDI than I had been led to believe in the past. For starters, I saw that there was in fact a long way home still available. It might have been my friend had a different quest book / edition of the game from the one I read just now; back when I played, the cutoff definitely happened. I saw the possibility when I walked into the room but I was powerless to stop it. It's possible my friend the EWP was cheating when that happened tho, because he definitely did a nasty bit of that, not the worst of which was a few false starts on monster movements.

Daedalus wrote:Another topic, Quest 2, artifact loss!!!, also discussed this. My suggested solutions are found in the 9th post.

I saw that thread, and I approve of your ideas of cryptic hints for traps like that one. I might even offer up a chance to talk to the shopkeeper/alchemist as a way of delivering the hint.