Diagonal Gameplay

[sorcerersapprentice]

Hi everyone - so I am working on a sister project in the spirit of Heroquest, and I have devised a system of diagonal movement, combat, sight etc.

I've mentioned this to a few people who seem confused and sort of holding the view that diagonal motions in HQ or in general are somehow too difficult, complicated to use in the game.

Now, I don't agree - and I already made my system before I encountered these views - by which I mean I didn't *know* it was supposed to be difficult - but could anyone tell me what they see as the difficulty in using diagonals? I will say that if you use other than 90 degree angles, you will have a problem of sorts with the smaller diamond hallway shapes from the squares being cut - but I don't intend to make the walls diagonal - so apart from this, are there issues you can think of to mention or that are a problem in HQ, that perhaps I am not seeing?

Kind Regards,
SA

[whitebeard]

In really large rooms the "Manhattan Distance" as used in HQ can be annoying if you are trying to cross a diagonal span. The movement points required to move diagonally could instead be approximated as 1.5.

And if you do this, you should prohibit the diagonal move if any of the squares "passed through" are occupied by walls (corners), furniture, or monsters. Heroes may pass through other heroes as usual. And you risk setting off any traps in these squares as well (EWP silently picks which if two are simultaneous).

Seems simple enough to me, but it is certainly way too complicated for young children. What did you come up with?

[sorcerersapprentice]

Hi Whitebeard - as the game is in development and in a state of change and secrecy at the moment I can't be too specific right now. But I can tell you that I eliminated the need to roll die for movement and gave each character a set distance of movement. Moving diagonally does not require counting extra squares - recall that my board is Four times the size of HQ, so the extra movement slice helps curb the enormity of that area.
Characters can squeeze between some furniture that meets on a diagonal to hide for instance, or between monsters to escape (if imbued with a special skill).

All of my rules are modular - and there will be variants, so you can switch which rules are in play, like you change the settings on a console or pc game, to suit different players and styles and preferences. So if you don't want to play a game where characters can move diagonally - you simply 'switch it off'.

So some realism exists in the sense that you 'could' sidle diagonally around a corner, or move through other players - or diagonally attack, or launch projectiles, magic, thrown weapons from a diagonal outside the doorway - pending Line of Sight and some other factors. So moving on the diagonal - -which IS actually a faster mode of transport does not change to another value such as 1.5, it is still one square.

[j_dean80]

Most people here at the Inn agree they do not like the fixed movement. They prefer the randomness of a dice roll.

[sorcerersapprentice]

I factored that in - its modular - and there are die rolls elsewhere to replace the ritual of rolling.

But that doesn't have a lot to do with diagonals?

[whitebeard]

Hi Whitebeard - as the game is in development and in a state of change and secrecy at the moment I can't be too specific right now. But I can tell you that I eliminated the need to roll die for movement and gave each character a set distance of movement. Moving diagonally does not require counting extra squares - recall that my board is Four times the size of HQ, so the extra movement slice helps curb the enormity of that area.
Characters can squeeze between some furniture that meets on a diagonal to hide for instance, or between monsters to escape (if imbued with a special skill).

All of my rules are modular - and there will be variants, so you can switch which rules are in play, like you change the settings on a console or pc game, to suit different players and styles and preferences. So if you don't want to play a game where characters can move diagonally - you simply 'switch it off'.

So some realism exists in the sense that you 'could' sidle diagonally around a corner, or move through other players - or diagonally attack, or launch projectiles, magic, thrown weapons from a diagonal outside the doorway - pending Line of Sight and some other factors. So moving on the diagonal - -which IS actually a faster mode of transport does not change to another value such as 1.5, it is still one square.

WarHammer Quest uses movement like you propose.

To be clear, moving on the diagonal is sqrt(2) = 1.41... units of distance. So approximating as 1.5 movement points (or weapon range) is going to be prety good. And I don't see what allowing so much extra distance on diagonal moves has to do with the size of your board. The motivation for your rule would be simplicity over reality.

[sorcerersapprentice]

Does it? I have an additional factor to movement as well but not to be mentioned yet.

EDITED FOR CLARITY:
Square roots are unnecessary - the simplicity of my game is that you move one square at a time and that calculation is always by one square - never more or less. So the distance travelled in any 90 degree direction, is equal to the distance travelled in any 45 degree direction. its just one square, forward, backward, sideward or diagonally which equates to 5 or so ft. The system of distance, light, projectiles, magic is always contained within the boundaries of the squares - so it does not get messy and is very easy to calculate. To put it another way, I view the system like chess, rather than broken into umpteenths of feet.

I would put to you that If you don't allow diagonal movement on a board as big as mine, it takes much longer to cross. If you could make a beeline from the top left corner to the right lower corner using only 90 degree movements it would take twice as long as moving on the diagonal.

I also add that this is going to be different in many ways to Heroquest because it is not heroquest - just inspired deeply by it.

[j_dean80]

I factored that in - its modular - and there are die rolls elsewhere to replace the ritual of rolling.

But that doesn't have a lot to do with diagonals?

I was talking about a game mechanic not a ritual. I do not roll movement dice just because I always have.

You are talking about movement (diagonal movement to be exact) so it has everything to do with the number of spaces.

By factoring diagonals as an equal movement as adjacent...why would anyone move adjacent? They could move diagonal every single turn and end up covering twice as much board. Unless your board is a bunch of tiny rooms to stop that movement.

You asked for input but it seems you are being defensive. Sounds like you already made up your mind on it.

[sorcerersapprentice]

What? you're reading into a book that was never opened as regards imagined emotions. Please don't do that. There is no slight, not hurt, just a detached explaination of my system.

In reply - you move adjacent because the layout of a dungeon requires of necessity that that you must move adjacent, for strategy, safety, geometry - as does moving adjacent come into play in an ever-changing unpredictable battlefield where strategy in combat and navigation count as modifiers for success.

Are you aware that Geas is four times the size of heroquest, 36 x 54", 1944 squares of area? + the tavern, afterlife and road sections equates to approx 2500 squares. There is no harm in moving through that as one might normally do so. When we walk somewhere, we take the shortest route generally - if we can cross the road before the crossing lights, we tend to do that, the phrase cutting corners endures because it is an indelible human trait to conserve maximum and deploy minimum energy, i.e. we seek the shortest route to get somewhere and I don't think that is a problem in a board this size or in general. Diagonal movement seems to have taken on some strange fear. I would alleviate those weird physics with a simple example. Stand in the room you are in with room to step 2 paces in any direction. If you've humoured me or just imagined then you may see that no matter which direction you step, you are walking two paces, in fact, there is, no diagonal. You are Always walking in a straight line and more or less within a fraction, the same distance.

Yes, I have made up my mind - but I am a person open to change with relevant logical discourse. I am simply yet to see a problem with moving diagonally either in its reflective approximation of real physics, or gamebound combat, movement and strategy where Not moving diagonally is simply very weird - and ironic if the system being employed is an attempt to harness a sense of reality.

[sorcerersapprentice]

If diagonal movement can be plausibly represented and used in such a way that it is simplistic and easy + adds to the strategic element of formulating tactics by introducing another variable that can be exploited, why not try it?

Heroquest by virtue of its dimensions would not benefit from allowing it because it is a small baord relatively speaking and the physics in HQ are not set up to include possible conflicts between diagonal and standard movement dependant challenges. partly, because the board is very small - and would be crossed in a matter of turns. And partly, because there appears to be no easy system yet developed to enable 8 directional motion. But I've got one - I developed one and its easy as pie and adds a lot to the RPG experience without being a mathematical or physis based burden, or contradiction.

That is all and only what I am saying - I haven;t time or interest to get offended or join one of those odd daily fights that emerge of nothing - im asking for your help to throw bricks at what I have, and simply requesting refutations to that system I may not have thought of. So far nothing has been raised that I see preventing my system from working. Which is good. But if that is all the issues that exist relating to using diagonals - then I am confident I created a way to use them seamlessly.