Some advice needed for introducing HQ to the next generation

[Count Mohawk]

Congratulations on your Heroes' first successful Quest! And again I come to answer your questions:

1. The Trial showcases not only every Monster but also every piece of furniture. And it is very hard! The only elements not featured here are traps and secret doors. I've seen talk of starting with The Rescue of Sir Ragnar, but I don't remember the thread's name, so you'll have to find that one yourself. The Trial would then be played as Quest 11 of 14, by which point the Heroes should be armored up and better able to take the challenge.
2. The usual rate for repurchasing redundant equipment is indeed 50% of its value. I don't know if this is a house rule or a real rule, but pretty much everyone plays it that way so it might as well be official.
3. Heroes retain all items and equipment, including potions, from quest to quest. Artifacts and other unique magical items can't be sold and have no gold value, but some Morcars allow players to sell Potions, usually in settings where Potions can also be purchased between Quests at a rate of 50% of their normal purchase price. That said, I consider it a mark of failure as a Evil Wizard Player if the Heroes ever accumulate enough Potions that they can afford to sell their spares. Potions are meant to be used, not sold!
   As for carrying limits, those tend to vary from Morcar to Morcar. I'm in the camp that permits Heroes to have infinite carrying capacity.
4. Throwing weapons are very rarely thrown if they are lost after one throw. If you want to encourage more of that, then you'll have to mod them to not be lost after throwing them. Your suggested rule of "thrown weapons are lost if they miss" helps, but may not solve the problem entirely since the risk of loss is still there. For other options: Slev's ruleset changes the Throw rule to "after throwing this weapon, it can't be used for the rest of the Quest", which is a little more useful (once per Quest instead of once ever). My rule is "You can retrieve a thrown weapon as part of a Search for Treasure once the room is empty of monsters", which basically makes throwables once-per-room. However, in pretty much all rulesets I've seen, thrown Daggers can never be retrieved.
5. Walrus! I love it when people start using my word for the black shield. As for interpreting it as an extra Skull for melee attacks... hm. I take it the improved defense of the monsters is taking its toll on the game? Sure, you would push the pendulum back in favor of attacks if you gave the Walrus to melee attackers, but the Heroes would not thank you for the change when they run into Chaos Warriors in future Quests. Even Orcs get quite a lot nastier with that extra buff. I suspect you won't have as big a problem with this lack of damage when your Heroes start buying better weapons, though.
6. If you interpret the Shield's effects in this way based on a Shield not being Armor, how do you play the Helmet?
7. Most of the Potions that don't heal Body Points are severely underpowered by comparison to those that do, but that doesn't make them bad! Sometimes a quick boost is all the Heroes need to turn the tides of a battle or stave off death for one more turn. Of course, if your Heroes are overly disappointed by them, you could increase the duration of their effects. Common time limits include "until the end of your next turn", "until you lose 1 or more Body Points" and "until you can no longer see any monsters". You could also say "until the end of the Quest", but I must caution you against doing so - that's a little too strong.

And one final thought about the Healing Salves your Heroes started with. Since you gave them each one Salve as a class perk and a balance against there only being 3 Heroes, I suggest making them either cheap or outright free to replace, but limit them to only carrying 1 at a time. Additional Potions, if you eventually make them available for purchase, should be more expensive.

[Anderas]

The next Quest Rescue of Sir Ragnar is far easier. No need for extra healing potions. That one really is a good starting quest. After, Kill Ulag, is also too easy. Skip Prince Magnus Gold or make the map shorter: it has an awful lot of long, empty hallways.

I think next time the Heroes really need a free healing is in Ollar's magical teleport labyrinth. I forgot the name of the quest.....

Yes I offer buy back at 50%.
Potions can be carried over yes. There are some making their kids hand them back because they would lose the cards after hiding them in their room, but other than that normally you can keep them.

No strolling out of the combat, I am thinking about the same rule. It is the one thing that could save the 1 BP Barbarian from dying. It also offers a tactical option: beat, move back, someone else moves forward, beats. Like the Romans were doing. Or if you don't want the other doing that with you, move backwards one field each combat round.

If you want to spice up combats, rather than giving everybody more positive results on the dice, give them some spells. My Fimirs are using one Fimir Spell each, my mummy's are having a Necromancer Spell quite often. The Walrus could be the mishap result in your system.

Take a look at the EWP Deck. That one is also speeding up the game if you have the feeling your Heroes are taking too long.

Don't give them the Walrus as extra Skull. Your Heroes will be too strong very soon, quite often leaving you with empty rooms before it is your turn.

[Goblin-King]

#1 Not only does this Quest seem disproportionately hard for a first Quest (partly due my house rule #1 I know) but it also seems to showcase all the different Monsters in one go, far better to introduce them more slowly in my opinion - one day I might design a better opening Quest but no quite yet!

Well, this is a deliberate design choice, and personally I like it. You want the players to get excited over all the cool stuff, not disappointed over all the monsters left in the box.
The Trial is supposed to be a learning experience. Okay so this is a chaos warrior. It kills heroes. Now I know that for when we are 15 quests in and I actually care about my character.

#2 Do you offer the option of buying back equipment from the players between quests and if so at what rate 50%?

Yes, we play that used equipment has a resell value of 50%

#3 **How do you manage potions and similar being retained after the Quest, can they be carried over, can they be sold and if so for how much for and is there any limit to how many can be carried?

For treasure cards, all gold is noted on your character sheet, everything else is LOST! Trust me, this is the only way to go. The heroes will gain an incredible surplus of potions which will break the game.
It's better to motivate them to actually use the potions during the quests.

#4 No one seems willing to throw any ranged weapons - the hand axe - due to the 'throw it and lose it' rule, perhaps loosening this to 'throw it and miss and you lose it' might work better?

Yeah, the throw rules are stupid. I think the throw once per game, but not loose is a good rule.

#5 I'm thinking of counting the Black Shield (Walrus!) as a Skull in close combat (not ranged attacks) to speed it up - any thoughts?

Honestly I think the vanilla combat system is fine. I wonder? Did you ever play the game through using just vanilla rules?
I'm not trying to put you down, but it sounds like you are trying to fix the engine without having taken a ride in the car.

#6 *Noticed the US version has a Shield so I added one for 150GC, anyone wielding it gets to count the Black Shield as a Shield in defence as Shields are not Armour contrary to most Dungeon crawlers and RPGs

The EU version also has a shield? Two cards if I recall correctly? Or was it the helmet that had two cards? Regardless, they do the same: Add 1 die to your defense roll for the price of 100 g.

#7 Finally for now the potions, Speed and Resilience (so far) seem very short lived for their effects, I was thinking of matching them up to the corresponding spells or something similar...

They are emergency potions... Soo... Idunno?

Reworked House Rules for next game are below, there may also be more depending on the response so far;

#1. Both Heroes and Monsters need to roll White Shields to defend.

If you also add NA BP values, the heroes are gonna have a BAD time in the later expansions. There are gonna be entire rooms literally filled with monsters!

#2. Heroes have fixed movement of 6 squares as standard but can declare a 'Rapid Move' action move at the start of their turn moving an additional dice worth of space instead of making an action.

Not a fan...

#3. If you start your turn adjacent to a Monster you cannot walk away until he has been killed, no strolling out of combat!

This could actually be quite interesting. But I think it's gonna be a massive strategic advantage to the EWP. He can force the players to waste an attack on a weak monster then move in with the strong monster for the kill.

[GimmeYerGold]

I used to play with the "white shields for all" rule, but after trying it out, then going back to vanilla, I found vanilla much more rewarding (and time saving) for both the players and myself to see them slay more monsters overall, rather than have a drawn-out epic duel with each and every lowly creature.

Also gotta add that you're missing out on a lot of the fun by having fixed movement for all the players.

[mitchiemasha]

I've recently added thrown weapons if hit can be retrieved from the target square or you could add to the search mechanic, spending an action to search will retrive you're weapon.

I like that you've added back some movement rolls.

If your playing EU monsters, the saves on white shields ain't a problem but US monsters i'm still saying it's not going to work. Think of it this way add up all the BP of the monsters in a Quest and all the BP of the heroes. If you're both using white shields and the number is equal, expect the heroes to mainly die, especially if not upgraded.

If you wan't to bring those black shield back into the game with your current mods... You could try playing rolling all black shields in attack damages your weapon, it's broken, discard the card. Like wise... in defence, you'd break your shield or helmet, if you had one.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Thanks again for your advice and feedback people, very detailed and much appreciated.

+ 50% repurchase of equipment as house rule, setting healing salves as a 50GC purchase but potions are literally priceless and cannot be bought and sold

+ Heroes retain all items and equipment, including potions, from quest to quest. Artefacts and other unique magical items can't be sold and have no gold value including Potions (however if potions do start to accumulate then I might have to change this, perhaps potions carried over from previous quests when taken then roll a CD if then the potion no longer works due to exposure to sunlight)

+ Throwing weapons are lost on a roll of all but otherwise can be picked up automatically after no more monsters in sight (or when the room is searched) and can be reused.

Explanation of the reasoning behind my proposed combat changes

In the vanilla rules Heroes & Monster hit on 3/6 faces , Heroes defend on 2/6 and Monsters on 1/6 so on average 2:1 hit ratio for want of a better term. Using the 'Walrus' - it is the perfect description so it stuck! - and the three Skulls means a hit on 4/6 faces and combined with the ' for all' rule, defence works on 2/6 faces so on average 2:1 hit ratio. The difference is under the proposed system 6 of the 12 faces do something under the vanilla system only 4/5 do anything, so more efficient - but the proof is in the playing!

Helmets are armour, they absorb damage and reduce the impact of a blow and minimise injury. A shield like a sword is used to parry or turn a blow and prevent a person from being hit in the first place (and it can also be used to attack)

Potions

+ Potion of Healing - restores Hero to full body points
+ Potion of Speed - Rapid Move now has 2 dice added instead of one until a double is rolled
+ Potion of Resilience - Extra two defence dice lasts until no more visible Monsters on the board
+ Potion of Strength - Extra two attack dice lasts until no more visible Monsters on the board
+ Berserker's Brew - Combination of both Strength and Resilience

Also Healing potions and healing salves can be used on yourself even on zero points provided they are used immediately - thoughts?

"Honestly I think the vanilla combat system is fine. I wonder? Did you ever play the game through using just vanilla rules?
I'm not trying to put you down, but it sounds like you are trying to fix the engine without having taken a ride in the car."

Fair point but I have the played the game many times in Vanilla mode but not in the last 20 years and I have a bad memory combined with some not overly clear notes on house rules - a dangerous combination but I'm trying to sift through them and see what works and what doesn't - I have some faith in what we decided so many moons ago but less faith that my notes reflect the reality of the rules we actually played.

Don't worry not many more house rules to come - I think...only traps, searching, a few weapons and equipment, new casting rules, extra monsters

[alyndavies]

I first started playing HeroQuest back in the early nineties and played for the best part of five years, initially once a month but then with less frequency as AHQ took over (or at least an increasingly heavily customised version of AHQ). I played a few more games around the start of the millennium as an indulgence in nostalgia but since then I haven't actually played a game of HeroQuest although I have been working on documenting and refining up my own customized version of AHQ.

I now have the opportunity to introduce HeroQuest to a new generation and wanted your guys input and experience on a few points on how best to do this from scratch;

1. Which is the best to use as a starting point, the EU version or the US version and why?

2. Based on the decision in question 1, are there any simple mods / changes that are essential or at least recommended to include from the start, and if so what are they and what are the benefits of each?

3. Would you lot like a 'battle report' of how it all goes!

I use a mix of USA and UK rules, basically I use the USA monster cards but normal monsters have 1 body point, but bosses have several.

If your introducing children to the game as I have to mine, then there are some things you should remember:

A) Don't give a young child the use of spells they take forever reading them, and this takes time which in turn stops the momentum of the game and boredom tends to set in. Also turn the bloody tv off, because if it's not their turn they start watching it and lose concentration.

B) Having 3 girls they are much happier having their own female characters, customisation is very easy. at the moment we play with a female Vampire, a female Elf, and 2 female Barbarians.

C) Combat dice:
The combat dice are unbalanced with 6 sides, 3 skulls, 2 white shields, and 1 black shield, Morcar / Zargon always loses his men, and almost never has any chance to defend. Mathematically speaking for every one combat dice rolled by a hero, Zargon will need 3 dice to have an equal chance of defending. Consider changing the dice. Skulls still mean attack, both Zargon and the heroes defend on white shields, and use black shields as a critical hits. If your attacking and need skulls, and you roll a black shield then the black shield counts as 2 skulls, if your defending and need white shields but roll a black one the black shield counts as two white shields. It makes things much more balanced and fun. It also means monsters aren't always cannon fodder.

D) Searching and Treasure cards.
At the END of a heroes turn they must now draw one treasure card, you no longer search for treasure, basically this works like an alien event card in Space Crusade. Monster in the room or not, they just draw a card.
If you have a lot of treasure cards then consider changing them a bit. In our deck we use 25 gold cards, 25 wandering monsters, 25 potions and 25 trap cards. Shuffle them up and basically at the end of a heroes go they have to draw a card. It's a 50/50 chance of being positive (gold or potion) or negative (wandering monster or trap).

If / when a character says search now it's simply for traps and secret doors.

E) Weapons, Armor and shields:
You always have a weapon in your main hand, but in your other hand you can either hold a Shield or Orcs Bane. Orcs Bane is a totally useless card and in my experience has never been used properly in a game of HeroQuest. A Barbarian starts with 3 attack dice, the Dwarf and Elf with two dice, so why would anyone really need an Orcs bane?
As we have multiple sets of cards then standard attacking set up for our heroes is a Spirit Blade in the main hand and an Orcs Bane in the off hand. Giving five dice to attack, (6 against undead). After the first attack, if there is an Orc in an adjacent square that can be attacked as the Orcs Bane attack.

With regards to Armor, I have several artifact card sets so all the heroes get one when they do the quests, provided they search the correct room. Generally they all wear Borins Armor, a Helmet, and a Thundergods belt for 6 defense dice.

F) Diagonal attacks:
This is a rule from my childhood days, any time a monster is attacked diagonally i.e. with a staff or spear then the defending monster rolls one less dice in defense. This is actually a rule from the Blood angels faction in Space Crusade but is fun in Heroquest too.

G) Movement dice and Artifact cards / Quest Treasures:
One you have completed the initial quests and go into the expansions it's likely at some point in the future that Heroes will die. Once lost Artifacts like the Spirit Blade and Borins Armor are gone from the game. The way we work around this is if any player rolls a double on the movement dice they are allowed to select a Artifact card from the pile provided it's already been discovered in a past quest. This is also a nice way of adding in other kinds of Artifacts like the Thunder Gods Belt, or the Wand of Galimatas for example.
I had the idea but couldn't reationalise it within the context of the game, until our 10 year old told us that Mentor opens port hole and sends us the items to help us on our quests.
You will find that within a few quests your heroes will have all the Artifacts they need and the double roll basically becomes pointless.
In this artifact pile I have also included a printed out 300 gold coins treasure card from the Elf Expansion, and as we have no spell caster for the original element spells I also included the Genie card. So basically they can find an Artifact, 300 gold coins, or they get lucky and find a Genie (Genie's lamp), give them the unused Genie Spell cards. The Genie does what it says it can do on the UK card, open any door and reveal any room on the board, attack any monster anywhere on the board, or in our own game can heal 4 body points on any hero anywhere on the board. If your playing the game with children you will find they do love the Genie! We have 9 Genie cards in total but no one can hold more than one at a time. If you have girls don't let them flutter their eye lashes at you for 3 wishes though, one Genie is enough!

It can lead to a lot of fun within the game, the hero enters a room, lobs a Holy Water grenade, rubs her magic lamp .... to get a Genie, , then stands between 2 monsters using the Spirit Blade and then a secondary attack with the Orcs Bane.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

turn the bloody tv off, because if it's not their turn they start watching it and lose concentration.

Good advice in general that one!

I'm not really a fan of the multiple weapons lead to multiple attacks theory, after all my left fist is a weapon, so are my elbows, knees, head and even my feet (with the necessary motivation I can thumb gouge and bite also) so no shortage of weapons whether I'm carrying one in my right hand or not - does an unarmed character get two attacks for dual wielding their fists?

Progress Update: We played the next Quest - "The Rescue of Sir Ragnar" this evening and the heroes were once again successful - although the Elf perished about halfway through as usual - I really need to give her some tactical training. The Quest was far easier than The Trial as people had mentioned, even with all the House Rules in place and a couple of extra Fimir (referred to as Trolls in our house) the Quest was interesting but not overly challenging.

The Barbarian had a blinding game, opening with a great use of the new ranged combat rules when, stepping out of the first room, he split the skull of the loitering Goblin at the end of the passageway with his axe and even used the same manoeuvre later to finish off another Troll (Fimir) that was in combat with the Dwarf - I had to improvise those rules quickly but a miss (no skulls) would have resulted in a hit to the Dwarf - as it turned out, with the Dwarf's player yelling "No, no, no, don't do it!" he rolled both Skulls and killed the Troll. The Barbarian also managed to net sufficient funds to purchase Mail armour which combined with an existing Helmet, Broadsword and Hand Axe makes a good set up, Battle Axe to follow...

The Dwarf again had a solid game, doing a lot of the work early on the game although having some bad luck with searching, traps and Wandering Monsters being sprung regularly, ended up in need of a Healing Potion which generously the Barbarian shared after finding it in a Chest. The Dwarf hasn't quite got enough Gold yet for equipment upgrades beyond the Shield that he picked up after the last game but has his sights on the Broadsword, Mail and a Crossbow to be able to give that all round damage!

Got a ten day break now until the next game, might look to spice up the next couple of Quests, perhaps I'll take a look at the US version Quest maps or type up some more House Rules, watch this space.

[alyndavies]

turn the bloody tv off, because if it's not their turn they start watching it and lose concentration.

Good advice in general that one!

I'm not really a fan of the multiple weapons lead to multiple attacks theory, after all my left fist is a weapon, so are my elbows, knees, head and even my feet (with the necessary motivation I can thumb gouge and bite also) so no shortage of weapons whether I'm carrying one in my right hand or not - does an unarmed character get two attacks for dual wielding their fists?

#

No, no , no!
They get one attack with their weapons per go, but if their using an Orcs bane they get a free attack provided they are next to an Ork and only an Ork. But they can also use a holy water if they have one, or use the Genie provided they have one.

[mitchiemasha]

Yeah multiple attacks is already a mechanic in the game so no worries to use it, expand on it.