Invisible Heroes and Monsters

[Malcadon]

How do you handle invisible Heroes and monsters?

For invisible monsters, I would replace the figure with an Invisibility token from the Dragon Strike game, and the players might not even know what kind of monster they are facing if it starts play invisible. The monster cannot be "seen" so they cannot be targeted for range attacks or spells, but it can still prevent Heroes from searching. Heroes can attack invisible monsters, they can roll White Shields to defend. If a Hero uses a range weapon to attack a visible monster beyond an invisible monster (that is, the invisible monster is stand in-between the Hero and his target), the EWP rolls a CD. If a White Shield is rolled, the invisible monster is attacked, but with an extra CD to defense. Anything else would mean that the Hero attacks the original target in the normal way. If an invisible monster attacks or cast a spell, it will become visible.

For invisible Heroes, they can only move or preform free actions (open doors, drink potions, etc.). If they do anything else with a monster in sight, they will become visible. Unlike Heroes, Monsters will ignore invisible Heroes. If an invisible Hero opens a door into a room with monsters in it with no other hero is sight, the monsters will remain inactive until they see a visible Hero. Monsters with range weapons can accidentally hit invisible Heroes and monsters in the same way as noted above. The Vail of Mist spell and Dust of Disappearance (I treat this as common Treasure, then as an Artifact) turns Heroes invisible. Some powerful monsters might even see invisible Heroes, but this is an unusual ability.

Side notes relating to my invisibility rules: Players who opt to play the Expert (a nonspecific Hero-type that is a placeholder for the Dwarf) can substitute the default Dwarven Trap Mastery skill to know one of following skills: Hide in Shadows The Hero can, as an action, become invisible. As long as you do nothing else then move or preform free actions (open doors, drink potions, etc.), monsters will ignore you. If you do any other action, you will become visible, and you will not be able to become invisible again until there are no monsters in sight. Backstabbing If you are invisible, you may attack an adjacent monster in a way where it would not be able to make a defense roll. Once you make the attack, regardless of outcome, you are no longer invisible. Pickpockets If you are invisible in a room occupied by monsters, you may search it for treasure. The Evil Wizard Player rolls a Combat Die from behind the screen, in secrete. If anything but a White Shield is rolled, the Hero remains invisible. If a White Shield is rolled, the Hero is no long invisible, and the player may not know until the monsters start attacking when it is their turn to act. My Thief has AD 1, DD 2, BP 5, MP 3, starts off with a Dagger, and have the following skills: Backstabbing, Hind in Shadows, Pickpockets and Trap Mastery. (since these skills are mostly at-will, I make them count as equal to 1 AD or a BP)

So how do you guys handle invisibility?

[Sjeng]

hehehe, "hind in shadows" hehehe

Nice rules! But the Veil of Mist and Dust doesn't make them invisible. It makes them "aetheral" in my opinion. They can pass THROUGH monsters unseen as if they were air. After that, they turn solid again. Someone who's invisible can't pass through monsters.
Even if they are unseen for a bit, I don't rule that exactly the same as invisible. But I get your point.
It does open a door to some cool invisibility spells or effects though

[knightkrawler]

So how do you guys handle invisibility?

So far, not at all. From now on, like you. Those are some great fleshed out rules and I ain't seein' no weaknesses either.

[Malcadon]

hehehe, "hind in shadows" hehehe

Fixed. XP

Nice rules! But the Veil of Mist and Dust doesn't make them invisible. It makes them "aetheral" in my opinion. They can pass THROUGH monsters unseen as if they were air. After that, they turn solid again. Someone who's invisible can't pass through monsters.
Even if they are unseen for a bit, I don't rule that exactly the same as invisible. But I get your point.
It does open a door to some cool invisibility spells or effects though

Actually, I moved the Veil of Mist effect into a forth Air spell called Dance in the Wind, as it always felt like something Air would cover. I then reused the Veil of Mist name for that invisibility spell. (The forth Water spell is Breaths Water, that allows the caster move freely through water squares. Move Earth, removes Falling Rock tiles. And Fire Walker makes the caster immune to fire-based spells and attacks.)

Sorry I forget to mention that, but my notes are a mess.

I cannot remember how I ruled on moving through occupied squares while invisible?

[Daedalus]

How do you handle invisible Heroes and monsters?

Hadn't yet considered it much, but your well-thought-out rules are inspiring. I'll take a stab at it.

For invisible monsters, I would replace the figure with an Invisibility token from the Dragon Strike game, and the players might not even know what kind of monster they are facing if it starts play invisible.

Maybe it could also be played like a trap in the NA rules. Indicate the square after the monster attacks, but place nothing. Until it moves away, Heroes make make adjacent attacks against an invisible monster in a known location. An invisible monster's location may change unseen during movement, but new attacks reveal it again. Could make for a fun cat and mouse game, where an invisible monster can only be attacked every other round of turns after it moves back in to attack.

Hmm. Just realized upon review that I'm talking about a continuously invisible monsters above, the kind that doesn't become visible after an attack. For a monster with a temporary invisibility I'd use Invisibility, the Protection spell from WoM. Perhaps its duration could be extended until the monster attacks or casts a spell, but an ambush ability or wandering monster trap would basically have the same effect.

The monster cannot be "seen" so they cannot be targeted for range attacks or spells, but it can still prevent Heroes from searching.

I like only preventing Heroes from searching for treasure, where "the room is uninhabited by monsters." With searches for secret doors and traps I'd use HQ's "no monsters are visible" rule, trumping DS's no actions rule. By that I mean an invisible monster doesn't prevent a Hero from searching for secret doors and traps using NA rules-as-written.

Heroes can attack invisible monsters, they can roll White Shields to defend.

I prefer to have Heroes reroll skulls from an attack. This gives a greater advantage to lower-defense monsters, which benefit less from doubling with white shields. An across the board, half-as-likely chance to hit results from skull rerolls.

If a Hero uses a range weapon to attack a visible monster beyond an invisible monster (that is, the invisible monster is stand in-between the Hero and his target), the EWP rolls a CD. If a White Shield is rolled, the invisible monster is attacked, but with an extra CD to defense. Anything else would mean that the Hero attacks the original target in the normal way. If an invisible monster attacks or cast a spell, it will become visible.

Good modeling of realism there, though I prefer to depend on the HQ line-of-sight rule alone. Using only HQ's "good rule of thumb" for LoS, I'd go with the invisible monster blocking an unobstructed line to the visible target. This renders the rearward, visible monster a non-target. The missile (or spell) is instead always applied to the invisible, intervening monster. If continuously invisible, a hit or spell effect makes the monster's location known for adjacent attacks until it moves away. I'm not sure if friendly spells such as Heal Body or Courage should be intercepted in this way, but it might be fun.

For invisible Heroes, they can only move or preform free actions (open doors, drink potions, etc.). If they do anything else with a monster in sight, they will become visible.

I'd also allow searches for treasure and secret doors, as stated above.

Unlike Heroes, Monsters will ignore invisible Heroes. If an invisible Hero opens a door into a room with monsters in it with no other hero is sight, the monsters will remain inactive until they see a visible Hero. Monsters with range weapons can accidentally hit invisible Heroes and monsters in the same way as noted above....

I'm sticking with just the Invisibility spell restrictions of no spells or attacks against the invisible Hero. Like you, I'd also allow inadvertant missile (and spell) attacks against an invisible Hero using my parallel rules noted above. The big difference for me is if a Hero opens a door, monsters in the revealed room or corridor may move on their turn. If the invisible Hero is blocking the way, a monster prevented from moving through discovers the location of the invisible Hero and can make an adjacent attack against him.

Side notes relating to my invisibility rules: Players who opt to play the Expert (a nonspecific Hero-type that is a placeholder for the Dwarf) can substitute the default Dwarven Trap Mastery skill to know one of following skills: Hide in Shadows The Hero can, as an action, become invisible. As long as you do nothing else then move or preform free actions (open doors, drink potions, etc.), monsters will ignore you. If you do any other action, you will become visible, and you will not be able to become invisible again until there are no monsters in sight. Backstabbing If you are invisible, you may attack an adjacent monster in a way where it would not be able to make a defense roll. Once you make the attack, regardless of outcome, you are no longer invisible. Pickpockets If you are invisible in a room occupied by monsters, you may search it for treasure. The Evil Wizard Player rolls a Combat Die from behind the screen, in secrete. If anything but a White Shield is rolled, the Hero remains invisible. If a White Shield is rolled, the Hero is no long invisible, and the player may not know until the monsters start attacking when it is their turn to act. My Thief has AD 1, DD 2, BP 5, MP 3, starts off with a Dagger, and have the following skills: Backstabbing, Hind in Shadows, Pickpockets and Trap Mastery. (since these skills are mostly at-will, I make them count as equal to 1 AD or a BP)

Hide in Shadows
I'd require that initiating the action have the same requirement as becoming invisible again. That is, no monsters in sight--ever. This would prevent situations where a Thief who is pinned between adjacent enemies can avoid combat by hiding. I can't see two Orcs who have sandwiched an adjacent Thief in a single corridor giving up the attack when there is nowhere to hide or run.

Backstabbing
I like this a lot. It works really well with the invisible/hiding idea. Since it is so powerful as a no-limit ability, maybe it could stand some nerfing. Has playtesting shown otherwise?

Pickpockets
Why not put the power of rolling in the Thief player's hands? As a player, I have more fun dealing with my own luck. The monster is sure to attack a target, no matter who botches the roll.

Does your Thief have any weapon or armor restrictions?

[Daedalus]

Nice rules! But the Veil of Mist and Dust doesn't make them invisible. It makes them "aetheral" in my opinion. They can pass THROUGH monsters unseen as if they were air. After that, they turn solid again. Someone who's invisible can't pass through monsters.

I like to rationalize that Viel of Mist works like a magical trick on monsters. The magic befuddles thier senses and misdirects their attention away from caster, sorta like tapping someone on the shoulder from behind and then moving to their other side. The magic brings down a monster's guard so that it inadvertantly allows the caster to pass through its square as an ally would.

[Thantos]

Could cast some minis in clear transparent resin to represent invisible stuff? hmm

[Malcadon]

[everything stated above]

Thanks!

Does your Thief have any weapon or armor restrictions?

Same as the Wizard (Dagger, Staff and Sling (range AD1)), plus the Shortsword and Bow (range AD2).

(although, I have been cozying up to the idea of allowing the Wizard to use the Shortsword)

I liked the Cloak and Bracers from to UK edition so much, I made my own rules for them. The Cloak and Bracers can be used by anyone, but only a Thief and Wizard can benefit form their limited use, as they are the only armor they can use (other Heroes can only use a Bracer or a shield; a Cloak or armor). The Cloak adds 1DD vs range attacks, as it obscures the Hero's profile (this was done in real life, back when pistol duals were popular). Bracers adds 1DD vs melee attacks, as it can parry weapons like a buckler shield. So yeah, they both have to pay more just to get the same basic level of protection form a single piece of non-Platemail armor (that can block both types of attacks).

(sorry I do not have my notes on them at hand -- I really need to organize my stuff!)