Is everyone on Ye Olde Inn a HQ25 hater? Dungeon Saga too?

[torilen]

There are quite a few people on here who have put-down copyright laws, and that is very disturbing. Copyright laws
exist to protect someone's intellectual property. Don't you think it would be ridiculous if someone wrote a book,
published it, and then another person took that exact same book, word for word, cover and all, and had the
resources to print more copies and get the book out more, and only because of that reason they could sell the
book - possibly even taking up markets that the original writer could have use in the near future?

That's why copyright laws are there.

Now - as far as this whole HQ25 goes...they committed some major copyright infringement. All they had to do
was take the Heroquest game...create their own board, rename everything, and write a little bit different
story line, and they'd have been gold. WHY? Because game rules and game play cannot be copyrighted or
trademarked. If they had done even a small amount of research on the subject, they would have known that.
I know that. That's why I was able to take Heroquest - change a few of the rules, add my own rules, and rename
the spells - and poof...I have a full roleplaying game based on the old fantasy boardgame. No copyright infringement...
no trademark infringement...no legal issues at all.

So, before you start downing laws that protect people and the hard work they put into something, I ask you to do
some research and think about the subject just a little bit first. All of you who love Heroquest and other fantasy works
would be very thankful that copyright laws exist if you did that.

(NOW - all of that said - there is certainly a case to be made that copyright and trademark laws have caused problems in
the past. Examples? How TSR constantly sued fans for posting their thoughts and ideas about D&D on the internet. How
Wizards of the Coast was granted a trademark on Collectible Card Games game play, thus closing the market to outside
companies that could create great competition and innovation.)

[Count Mohawk]

There are quite a few people on here who have put-down copyright laws, and that is very disturbing. Copyright laws
exist to protect someone's intellectual property.

I didn't always have a problem with copyright existing. It makes sense to me that the actual inventor of a copyrightable work should be the first one who profits by it. However, in the United States, the original intent of copyright as described in the Constitution was to promote science and the arts. Specifically:

(The Congress shall have power) “To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries.”

These days, copyright terms are so long, anything created in our lifetimes will not enter the public domain before we die, and may still be locked up by copyright when our children die. I argue that since the primary holders of copyright (companies such as Disney) disrespect the public's right to advanced arts by pushing near-infinite copyright terms, the institution of copyright should itself be questioned.

[Sjeng]

Posted by Tea in the German forums just now:
http://tsdr.uspto.gov/documentviewer?caseId=sn86834134&docId=OOA20160318174004#docIndex=1&page=1

I sure hope that gets declined too. "HeroQuest Classic" now? *sigh* GameZone sure has some balls. A bootleg they dare call Classic. As if THEIR version is the original classic version. I hope the gods strike that Spaniard with lightning real soon.

[cornixt]

This project had a huge number of red flags from the start. The continuing drama around it just seems cruel to those who have lost money on it (albeit there is a chance they will get something small out of it, once they have paid more fees. And a longer wait. And more fees, but only a few months I promise...)

How Wizards of the Coast was granted a trademark on Collectible Card Games game play, thus closing the market to outside
companies that could create great competition and innovation.

Didn't stop anyone, there were still loads of CCGs afterwards.

[torilen]

cornixt - I'm pretty sure any outside company is paying Wizards a licensing fee to publish and sell
a CCG. Granted, I'm not a lawyer, but from everything I have read, Wizards has a trademark on
the specific way a CCG is created and sold...because it is a CCG...and to try and sell without a license
would invite lawsuit and ruin.

[torilen]

Here is a semi-explanation:
Quote:
Wizards of the Coast holds U.S. Patent 5,662,332 on trading card games. The patent, filed in October 1995 and granted in September 1997, covers:
* Games published in the form of trading cards.
* Games in which a player selects a collection of tradeable elements and uses that set to compete with other players.
* Certain aspects of gameplay originally developed for Magic: The Gathering, such as "tapping" a card to indicate it is temporarily depleted.
As a holder of the patent, Wizards of the Coast has requested that all trading card game publishers license the mechanics described in the patent, usually for a royalty fee based on total sales.[4]

In October 2003, Wizards of the Coast filed suit against Nintendo and related companies in U.S. District Court in Seattle shortly after its distribution agreement expired. The suit alleged, along with other claims, that the Pokémon Trading Card Game infringed on the company's patent.[5] In December of that year, the parties settled the case on undisclosed terms.

===========================
Notice the second thing up there - players select a collection of tradeable elements and use it to compete against other players.

Now, all of that said - looking it up just now (to find that explanation above), it may be that their trademark/patent/whatever
expired in 2015. Which means, there could be a lot more now...which might be what you're seeing.

[cynthialee]

easy way around that...don't allow tradable elements
Set decks as issued is the only official way to play. If players want to customize their play and do their own thing then by all means do what you will.

[torilen]

Hey - as far as I am concerned, that would never be a problem. I absolutely hate the "tradeable"
market model....be it card games, miniature figure games, etc. There are certainly ways one could
sell cards for a game that is not tradeable, but still allows the customization as games like MTG
allow. I've been working on some ideas myself and I am close - I just don't have the art skills to
make the cards worth buying...nor do I have any way to create pdf's to send to a printer so that
I could sell the cards.

Maybe soon.

[cornixt]

I objected to your use of the words "closing the market" when there were clearly a lot of CCGs since the patent was filed. If all they had to do was pay a licensing fee then it merely raised the bar a bit.

New CCGs just aren't likely to be successful now, most people hate random distribution now that they have seen it, and the ones that don't hate it want to invest in the big existing CCGs instead. You're better off going for an LCG model instead. And selling the game design to a company so they can do all the art. Kickstarter is full of failed CCGs, even ones with great art and mechanics.

[torilen]

For someone wanting to create and sell their own game, a licensing fee does close the market, in many cases. Much like owning a restaurant.
Would you rather purchase a restaurant that is stand alone, where you have to follow some rules and regulations and pay a royalty...or would
you rather purchase a franchise restaurant where you do exactly what the parent company tells you to do?

Same idea - with a licensing fee, you don't usually have someone else telling you what to do...but if that licensing fee was not there, you
would keep every single bit of profit you have. And who knows...with a licensing fee for CCG like that, there might be certain rules
that must be followed in order to sell.

Kind of like with the whole Dungeon Master's Guild on DriveThruRPG now. A person can EITHER create materials for older D&D versions
and use the open gaming license, but then cannot create materials for published worlds....OR they can create materials for Forgotten
Realms and Ravenloft, but must use D&D 5th edition.