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Diagonal Gameplay

Discuss general topics relating to HeroQuest that don't fit well in the categories below.

Re: Diagonal Gameplay

Postby mitchiemasha » January 16th, 2018, 11:40 pm

cornixt wrote: which is far less weird than the searching rules that assume you move 20 squares and search in that short space of time

Since the search is only available after the area is cleared and it takes an entire action, it is considered that you are moving around the room and back again. The search could simply be using your eyes, seeing the object and moving to pick it up, and back again. The rules simplify and reflect this perfectly. What the deck reveals could even be in the square you're in. They could of added 'After a search action place your hero on any square of that room' but it's an extra rule that's not needed, doesn't improve the game or fix a problem.

Factoring in the extra turn for a trap search is simply a more cautious treasure search. Not doing that first is rushing for the object quickly. Doing the trap search is "ahaa a boot does it have a gem in, wait lets look for wires first" reflecting longer time, more use of actions, again... Perfect! It's kind of 'cat in box' the item you got excited over, the story doesn't reveal itself until you've picked the card.

Another way it can be seen. If using your search action before moving or after moving, It was done during your move and the item found was found over the area in which you move/moved. Nothing weird or bizare about it.

cornixt wrote: or that someone will only be able to move two squares one minute and 12 the next while everyone around him can do the opposite.

On the rare occasion someone does roll 12, it's hardly ever used, the average roll of 7 is roughly the fixed movement that would work well. And i'm going to say it... Excellent footing "will i trip on a flagstone or leap heroically into battle". Rolling double 1's is rare, in our game it triggers 'HAZARD'! Which is awesome fun to play and adds more risk when experienced players abuse certain mechanics.


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Re: Diagonal Gameplay

Postby mitchiemasha » January 17th, 2018, 12:20 am

In Space hulk we have diagonal movement, including cutting corners but not between diagonally joined squares if they are both occupied. Remember a corner means 1 of those squares is occupied, another character diagonal to the corner, would block the corner. The problem comes with writing all this up with no confusion to all minds. At your own table it's easy but in a game to be shared, perfect wording and diagrams are needed.

The way it's always been to me... A character can move diagonal, it simply cost 1.5 rounded up, 2 movement points. For the sake of simplicity the character moves forward and to the side, diagonal, 2 movement points. Solves any issue of complications and explanations bloating the rule book, as mentioned above. Issues with furniture, everything, fixed. The easiest way to write it is "no diagonal movement". This doesn't mean your character is some how deformed or mentally disturbed with some crazy straight line OCD.

In Heroquest
I'd be happy with making diagonal movement a skill locked to an artifact or a character class like Agility, great for the Elf.
I'd be happy with a 'Slippery Shoes' artifact. 'Slip between 2 occupied diagonally joined squares'
I'd be happy to allow Hobbits, Halflings, Midgits to have the same ability as standard. They are small, it fits perfectly.

In your 'new' game
I'd be happy which ever way you choose it, as long as it works. Don't forget in Space Hulk, it's Action Points, they only move a few square and rooms are always very small. Diagonal movement is essential to the game actually working.

The only thing i'm not happy with is FIXED MOVEMENT! Knowing you can, can't escape that Firmir, knowing you can, can't catch that Goblin IS boring. The full fixed movement games 1.2.3.4... over and over is dull. Might as well simply move into a zone, do what ever is required of that zone, move to the next zone. I'll defend this thought to my death. It's the one thing i'm adamant on. If no roll to move, it's Action Points or Zones.


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Re: Diagonal Gameplay

Postby knightkrawler » January 17th, 2018, 4:39 am

the important thing is #*fraggle*realism
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Re: Diagonal Gameplay

Postby Anderas » January 17th, 2018, 4:55 am

So i am late to the party, but here my two cents. well. two hundred really. :D

I was going through that thought process myself when i redeveloped my personal hero quest. Here is the essence of what i found out:

Movement dice
* Movement dice had their disadvantages, as moving 2 spaces or 12 spaces is just crazy different. So i was removing them.
* Removing movement dice was not good. Everything became much too calculable, so it was getting boring, fast. I re-instated the movement dice.

Minimum movement
* Instead i made a new equipment that avoided frustration a little bit: Good shoes allow you to move at least 4 spaces.
* In the context of the heroquest board, where there are very few rooms with more than 5 spaces depth, this is more than enough. Those shoes are also a good gold-sink and can be taken away from time to time, for sinking even more gold.
* I made custom rooms for end fights, which are bigger. They are also bigger than the usual center room. Here, people were really happy to have the shoes.

Maximum movement: Run
* There are missions where you traverse the long side of the board once or twice, a few badly designed quests make you even traverse it even three or four times. With average dice results, traversing the board costs three turns and is quickly done. However there was ALWAYS one character that was rolling less good than the others. So i invented "Run" as an action, that allows to add 3 movement to your roll, on the cost of your action.
* I experimented with 2 added movement: It wasn't used.
* I experimented with 4 added movement: That was a speed up that was crazy.
So for the Heroquest board size, 3 added movement were perfect.

Different boards
I mentioned the board size several times. I experimented with:
* The Heroquest Board
* Conan game boards
* Zombicide black plague game boards
* Space Crusade game boards (with space crusade models of course)
* Enlarged Heroquest Boards (not more spaces, just bigger spaces)
* A cut-down enlarged Heroquest Board to be used as modular tiles

The result: The movement rules and all range rules are highly dependent on the board you use. No surprise here. I share some details.

The number of squares
The original heroquest board is traversed in three turns usually. If you use the same movement rules on the space crusade game board (2x2 tiles, 24 spaces), you traverse it in four turns, which actually feels a lot longer and takes between 10 and 20 minutes more real game time. That finding surprised me - i came to the conclusion that i wouldn't want games that regularly take more than four turns to cross the entire board. An exceptional mission is different of course.

I adapted the movement rules to cross conan game boards in three to four turns (you move 1 or 2 fields then - still thinking about a dice rule); and for zombicide the same game, i adapted so you would move 2 or 3 fields on a zombicide game table (also still thinking about a dicing rule). (i use 2x3 or 3x3 zombicide tiles then).

If you play on a geas game board with 54 squares, i would advise either for an average movement range of 15 squares, or have shorter movement and use only a quarter to half of the game board in most of the games. Even in the much smaller Heroquest, many quests use only half a board.

board field size
There are obvious differences between conan/zombicide like spaces which are designed to take a lot of models, and heroquest sized spaces which are principally there for one model only.

Less obvious is this:
When i bought an enlarged Heroquest game board with 30mm spaces i did this to avoid the overcrowding of the old 22mm spaced original board.
Now the models are physically more apart from each other, and changes become really obvious when we discuss diagonal line of sights. The 22mm board was a pain in the ass in crowded rooms. It was so crowded it was obvious that you couldn't shoot diagonally, for example, and if only one field was occupied even models with special abilities hat to take the corner.
Not so on the 30mm board. We applied the same rules first, but the little bit of spacing extra changes everything, visually. Now, if you go down to model's level, you can clearly see between two diagonal models, no problem. Also for diagonal movement, if only one of the two spaces is occupied, normally it is not fully occupied anymore. So diagonal movement looks like it is possible if one square is occupied.
In the end, we decided against changing the rules for the new board, but this experience showed that there is clearly a high dependence of rules and board.

Now to your point:
Diagonal movement
As said earlier, those kinds of things are so dependent on your game board that we can give you advise about our personal tast but as long as no-one has seen your board with models, no-one can really give advise. Some few things can still be said:

* I experimented with giving everyone double movement. Then a straight movement would cost 2, and a diagonal movement would cost 3. That was based on the same line of thought like whitebeard's, cutting the corner is making 1.41 length of way. An alternative would have been to count 2, 1, 2, 1 when moving diagonally; which i didn't want as it was too complicated.
I tested this not on a Heroquest board but on Space Crusade. There, both sides have a group to play, and if you play it with the right set of rules, it can become quite tactical. So i was looking for something tactical in movement as well. This type of rule works very good. The range of a model in an open field becomes approximately a circle, much to my pleasure.

And, slippery slope argument: as you already have cut into the area of assigning a movement cost to each square, you can immediately proceed to assign different movement costs to different terrains; which is a great option. (I use that one now if i do overland questing: Each square has two numbers printed on. The one you pay when entering straight and the other you pay when entering diagonally.)

* We found the need to define if you can go diagonally through a monster or corner or not. It really was a need, it just felt much too weird sliding with half your model through a ceramite wall plating.
We did it simple: Any diagonal movement cannot be done if one of the two adjacent fields is occupied. Again for simplicity, we didn't distinguish between a adamantium-hardened dreadnought, wall plating or a mouse.

What felt great for Space Crusade, didn't feel all so well for Heroquest. We started doing it, just for finding out that we used it nearly nowhere, simply because of the board properties. Rooms are stuffed with furniture, hallways are one-square-wide, monsters block the way - after two games, we decided to drop this rule for the Heroquest Board even if we liked it.

We keep the ability to go diagonal, but it is a special ability for some very dancy characters. They are allowed to move one field per turn diagonally for the orginal cost of one movement point. The speed up effect here is part of the bonus, and the weird ability of going between two monsters or slipping around corners is accepted because it adds to the character's ninjalike/dancerlike description just nice.

Zombicide and Conan: It is absolutely out of question to go diagonal on a Conan Board. The irregular field shapes sometimes don't even allow to define diagonal.
In the case of Zombicide, the speed up effect would be so crass it would become comical. Also, there is rarely a space on the Zombicide board that does not have a corner at least on one of the two diagonal sides. So, for Conan and Zombicide, there just is no diagonal.

Again we have seen that it is highly dependent on the board.
Heroquest: Possible but not attractive due to the room layout, but makes for a nice character extra rule
Space Crusade: Really a good option, especially after the 41% longer range is taken into account for
Zombicide: no way
Conan: no way ever due to irregular field shapes

Now, I don't know your GEAS Board. If you have large open rooms with a lot of squares, it might be attractive, but i really would do something about the 41% boost. The 2 points straight/ 3 points diagonal rule we used works really great here.
If you have small rooms and aisles, just let it go, don't do it.
If you really want it and it is something to be done by everybody, just please care for the weirdness with something simple.


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Re: Diagonal Gameplay

Postby Pancho » January 17th, 2018, 8:12 am

For folks who are put off/annoyed by the large differences that can arise in movement die rolls in Heroquest (2-12) I always say that this variation is explained in the abstract by the micro-environment in the dungeon. You just rolled a 12? the dungeon is really well lit and/or you've found a nice smooth area to walk through. Lucky you. Just rolled a two? A wall-torch went out or was never there in the first place, and/or you stumbled on loose flagstones that are covered in Giant Bat guano or some over excrement. Tough titties.

I'm in full agreement about using footwear equipment cards that can add to movement (and conversely heavy armour that can detract from it).


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Re: Diagonal Gameplay

Postby mitchiemasha » January 17th, 2018, 9:12 am

Some good experimenting there Anderas, a good read.

Pancho... I agree completely. Exactly as i see it. If people want to split the classes out. 2d8 for the Elf. 2d6 for Human. 2d4's for the Dwarf. I don't do that but on my Character Creation sheet Speed unlocks the use of 2d8's.


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Re: Diagonal Gameplay

Postby knightkrawler » January 17th, 2018, 9:29 am

Pancho wrote:For folks who are put off/annoyed by the large differences that can arise in movement die rolls in Heroquest (2-12) I always say that this variation is explained in the abstract by the micro-environment in the dungeon. You just rolled a 12? the dungeon is really well lit and/or you've found a nice smooth area to walk through. Lucky you. Just rolled a two? A wall-torch went out or was never there in the first place, and/or you stumbled on loose flagstones that are covered in Giant Bat guano or some over excrement. Tough titties.

I'm in full agreement about using footwear equipment cards that can add to movement (and conversely heavy armour that can detract from it).


There you go! And mitchie worded it differently before using different examples (searching)...
The rules of a board game are an abstraction of what's plausible with as few rules as possible.
If you go overboard with plausible you're in the realm of realism, so WHY BOTHER WITH ANY KIND OF GRID at all?
Use a laserpointer and go full RPG/wargame hybrid.
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Re: Diagonal Gameplay

Postby Pancho » January 17th, 2018, 10:36 am

mitchiemasha wrote:Pancho... I agree completely. Exactly as i see it. If people want to split the classes out. 2d8 for the Elf. 2d6 for Human. 2d4's for the Dwarf. I don't do that but on my Character Creation sheet Speed unlocks the use of 2d8's.

Its never even crossed my mind to use different dice for movement for different characters. Good idea!


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Re: Diagonal Gameplay

Postby cornixt » January 17th, 2018, 12:00 pm

knightkrawler wrote:the important thing is #*fraggle*realism

The important thing is #dontfretoverrealism
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Re: Diagonal Gameplay

Postby knightkrawler » January 17th, 2018, 1:39 pm

cornixt wrote:
knightkrawler wrote:the important thing is #*fraggle*realism

The important thing is #dontfretoverrealism


The use of the term "realism" in a fantasy or board game context gives me the heebiejeebies.
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