Turn order: Rigid or flexible?

[The Admiral]

Flexible would make it easier for the heroes, so that's never going to happen!

[HispaZargon]

Yeah, flexible makes Heroes' life much easier, especially in the critical moments of the game.

in my humble opinion, I would only allow turn flexibility to balance other beefing general rules like allowing just 1 treasure search per room, for example.

[The Admiral]

Yeah, flexible makes Heroes' life much easier, especially in the critical moments of the game.

in my humble opinion, I would only allow turn flexibility to balance other beefing general rules like allowing just 1 treasure search per room, for example.

I do that as well!

[Parzival]

Good points. It’s easy to forget that the nature of being “Zargon” (or Morcar) in this game is to be entirely adversarial. You aren’t actually a DM (who is a referee); you’re an opponent. You win the game by killing the heroes. So altering the rules to favor the heroes simply means you’re reducing your chance of winning. Unlike a DM, the Zargon player isn’t supposed to alter the rules at all. Now, if you find more fun in the heroes fulfilling the quest (and thus defeating you), as a DM might, then by all means, change things up. But if you want a decent shot at winning, go By The Book!

So I may well just use the fixed order, as per the rules, after all.

[The Admiral]

Good points. It’s easy to forget that the nature of being “Zargon” (or Morcar) in this game is to be entirely adversarial. You aren’t actually a DM (who is a referee); you’re an opponent. You win the game by killing the heroes. So altering the rules to favor the heroes simply means you’re reducing your chance of winning. Unlike a DM, the Zargon player isn’t supposed to alter the rules at all. Now, if you find more fun in the heroes fulfilling the quest (and thus defeating you), as a DM might, then by all means, change things up. But if you want a decent shot at winning, go By The Book!

So I may well just use the fixed order, as per the rules, after all.

It has been a long time since I defeated the heroes. Probably 30 years ago when there was a total party wipe out in Dark Company. I like to make it so that the heroes should win, but there is a chance they won't. As the heroes have become more powerful I have had to up the ante to keep pace, but they are very resilient to my attempts.

I have come close a couple of times. 20 years ago we played Mage in the Mirror and I almost wiped out the main elf's party with only him remaining. More recently, last summer we played Jungles of Delthrak with a sub party of the main barbarian and only the Alchemist survived. But the quests were completed on both occasions.

[wallydubbs]

I feel if monsters can have a flexible turn order for strategic advantage, so too should the heroes. I understand that it might be easier to keep track if you go with the clockwise formation, some heroes may even prefer that. I'm comfortable either way. Some spells are more helpful depending when it's cast.

[Gold Bearer]

Some spells are more helpful depending when it's cast.

Deep Sleep is completely useless if you're the last to go, it lasts until the start of the next EWP turn.

[Parzival]

Some spells are more helpful depending when it's cast.

Deep Sleep is completely useless if you're the last to go, it lasts until the start of the next EWP turn.

That’s not entirely accurate, as ALL hero actions are completed before “the next EWP” turn.
So if the Wizard casts sleep on an Orc and succeeds, the Orc will be asleep when Zargon’s turn begins and must make a “spell break” roll to awaken— and that’s true whether the Wizard casts it first, second, third, or last.
The one difference is that a subsequent hero could attack the Sleeping foe before the EWP, and depending on edition rules, probably kill it outright with no defense roll.
In that case, a minimal order structure of MMWM would be advantageous. (Where M=Melee guy and W=Wizard).
Also, in the 2021 edition at least, Sleep has two (or more) save rolls— immediately when cast, and on the monster’s action during the EWP turn.
So there turn order has a slight advantage, but even if the Wizard is last the effect of the Sleep spell is still likely to extend to the Heroes’ next turn. Not completely useless at all.
Perhaps it’s an element in the original UK version? Or simply a misunderstanding of the spell’s text?

[manaknight14]

Some spells are more helpful depending when it's cast.

Deep Sleep is completely useless if you're the last to go, it lasts until the start of the next EWP turn.

That’s not entirely accurate, as ALL hero actions are completed before “the next EWP” turn.
So if the Wizard casts sleep on an Orc and succeeds, the Orc will be asleep when Zargon’s turn begins and must make a “spell break” roll to awaken— and that’s true whether the Wizard casts it first, second, third, or last.
The one difference is that a subsequent hero could attack the Sleeping foe before the EWP, and depending on edition rules, probably kill it outright with no defense roll.
In that case, a minimal order structure of MMWM would be advantageous. (Where M=Melee guy and W=Wizard).
Also, in the 2021 edition at least, Sleep has two (or more) save rolls— immediately when cast, and on the monster’s action during the EWP turn.
So there turn order has a slight advantage, but even if the Wizard is last the effect of the Sleep spell is still likely to extend to the Heroes’ next turn. Not completely useless at all.
Perhaps it’s an element in the original UK version? Or simply a misunderstanding of the spell’s text?

You’re thinking of the standard Sleep spell. Gold Bearer is talking about the Deep Sleep spell for the Elf which is different. It wears off the moment the next EWP turn starts, no dice roll required. The tradeoff is the monster doesn’t get a die roll when the spell is cast either, so it’s a guaranteed to keep the monster asleep for that short period of time.

[TheLastChaosWarrior]

Fixed turn order for me!

It's clearer whose turn it is. The dice just pass around.

No slowing down because of heroes discussing turn order.

I think we would have a hard time remembering who already acted and who didn't with flexible turn order.

When a quest turns competitive (for some ridiculous personal matters), turn order is clear if fixed.

Encourages the party to split (instead of standing in line one just takes the next door).

Creates situations where the neglected Veil of Mist and Pass through Rock spells become really useful.

It's no more difficult than when the EW has to remember what monsters have moved or not?
And actions do not have to be tracked as it's tied to movement.
A character has to have his complete turn, move and action, then he is finished. Then next Hero.
No going back to take an action because your turn is over.
Fixed order is unrealistic, doesn't encourage creative combat moves and can drag game out longer, especially at doorways.
For instance if barb goes first every time and he moves to doorway and attacks.
Next turn he attacks and moves away, dwarf moves in and attacks.
Then next turn barb loses a turn because he can't move to doorway because dwarf is in the way.
He has to wait till next turn for space to be vacant??