Searching for treasure ... US vs. EU

[Anderas]

Ah no
I have made my cards myself and used one of the blank card decks they offer.

[Daedalus]

. . . The reason I did this is because soon me and my friends will likely make a run through the game and I'm scanning ahead for what rules would fit our group best. I intend to use Slev's Advanced revision of the rules, which seems to mostly lean on the American version. Since the European version used to be our standard, that is a significant difference. Of course, the American version also has the Apothecaries and with monsters having more bodypoints, it seems likely a lot of gold is being converted into potions when using the American rules. But does it compensate for the disparity between the number of possible treasure searches? Thoughts?

The NA and EU Treasure decks are similar, but not equal. The EU ratio is 17 good to 9 bad (1 nothing), while the NA ratio is a less-favorable 14 good to 10 bad. The notable difference is the NA deck lacks a 100-gold-coin Treasure Horde card. You may wish to remove it for at least a time if you allow 4 NA searches per room, as it will be drawn more often. How much more often? That depends on the group. Some groups try to grind away every room with all 4 searches, but certainly not all or even the majority of groups.

Having extra search availability doesn't necessarily translate into more searches. From my own NA experience, we generally only milked the Treasure deck while it was easy. After about a 60/40 ratio of bad to good cards, we learned to only sometimes search further and then only after achieving the Quest objective so that we could search with a safe margin of Body Points. Another factor was healing potions; if there were still two or more in the deck, we were motivated to search more rooms. Beyond that, sometimes we preferred to simply end earlier rather than search every last room. The trend was to forego the extra searches after we felt more secure in equipment.

One nice aspect of implementing NA monster Body Points is that Wandering Monster card will increase in threat as Heroes scale up in power. The fact that an NA deck contains an extra Wandering Monster Card drives this home all the more. Introducing multiple monsters also increases the threat for both the EU and NA systems. Both multiples combined in NA monsters--2 Fimirs, for example--can wear down treasure-grinders considerably.

Previously mentioned furniture searching is a nice mod. Another option is to instead allow one search per room as a default, but to also allow an extra search--up to four--to be allowed for each defeated monster. This way more dangerous rooms potentially provide greater rewards, but searches will sometimes be limited to than less than four per room.

[Maurice76]

Thanks for those insights, I really appreciate it - mostly because I am still undecided.

Just earlier today I realised that perhaps instead of weighing furniture (if I exclude corridors, the number of searches of 1 per room and 1 per furniture is less than what the base EU rules give which include corridors) I should take room size in consideration. Small rooms would allow for just one search, bigger rooms for more. Let's say the two small 2x3 rooms in the lower left each allow for one search and the big one in the center at 5x6 allows for 4 searches, then you'd get a sliding scale ranging from 6 tiles to 30 tiles. Three intermediate values are then 12, 18 and 24 ... so rooms at a size of 6-12 allow for 1 search, 13-18 allow for 2 searches, 19-24 allow for 3 and 25+ allows for 4. This is just a very rough idea, I haven't yet analysed the sizes of the chambers across the board and hence their allowed searches. Maybe I will have some time tomorrow to ponder about that solution.

As far as my player group is concerned, the last time we played it, we were teenagers. Now we're all 40+ . I have no idea how they will play it through now.

[Gold Bearer]

. . . The reason I did this is because soon me and my friends will likely make a run through the game and I'm scanning ahead for what rules would fit our group best. I intend to use Slev's Advanced revision of the rules, which seems to mostly lean on the American version. Since the European version used to be our standard, that is a significant difference. Of course, the American version also has the Apothecaries and with monsters having more bodypoints, it seems likely a lot of gold is being converted into potions when using the American rules. But does it compensate for the disparity between the number of possible treasure searches? Thoughts?

The NA and EU Treasure decks are similar, but not equal. The EU ratio is 17 good to 9 bad (1 nothing), while the NA ratio is a less-favorable 14 good to 10 bad. The notable difference is the NA deck lacks a 100-gold-coin Treasure Horde card.

Don't forget Holy Water, that's a decent card. I honestly think they left that out of the US version so as not to offend Christians (some of them were already apparently complaining about D&D being 'demonic' ), why else would they leave out such a cool and unique card?

Just earlier today I realised that perhaps instead of weighing furniture (if I exclude corridors, the number of searches of 1 per room and 1 per furniture is less than what the base EU rules give which include corridors) I should take room size in consideration. Small rooms would allow for just one search, bigger rooms for more. Let's say the two small 2x3 rooms in the lower left each allow for one search and the big one in the center at 5x6 allows for 4 searches, then you'd get a sliding scale ranging from 6 tiles to 30 tiles. Three intermediate values are then 12, 18 and 24 ... so rooms at a size of 6-12 allow for 1 search, 13-18 allow for 2 searches, 19-24 allow for 3 and 25+ allows for 4. This is just a very rough idea, I haven't yet analysed the sizes of the chambers across the board and hence their allowed searches. Maybe I will have some time tomorrow to ponder about that solution.

As far as my player group is concerned, the last time we played it, we were teenagers. Now we're all 40+ . I have no idea how they will play it through now.

I'd keep it much more simple than that. Adding new content to HQ is great but if you add complexity like that it really needs to be because that new complexity is the simplest way of bringing the new content into the game without diluting that content. Adding a sliding number of allowed room searches depending on the room size falls way outside that in my opinion. One search per room, no treasure searches in corridors. You don't want to make gold too easy to get and devalue listed treasure.

[mitchiemasha]

I'd keep it much more simple than that.

Agreed...

I should take room size in consideration. Small rooms would allow for just one search, bigger rooms for more. Let's say the two small 2x3 rooms in the lower left each allow for one search and the big one in the center at 5x6 allows for 4 searches, then you'd get a sliding scale ranging from 6 tiles to 30 tiles. Three intermediate values are then 12, 18 and 24 ... so rooms at a size of 6-12 allow for 1 search, 13-18 allow for 2 searches, 19-24 allow for 3 and 25+ allows for 4. This is just a very rough idea, I haven't yet analysed the sizes of the chambers across the board and hence their allowed searches. Maybe I will have some time tomorrow to ponder about that solution

I'd say that was taking it a bit too far. It's also a lot more complex to explain.

[Anderas]

Say, can someone access this link?

https://www.printerstudio.de/design/dn_ ... 4DA446F776

Just a try

[Maurice76]

One search per room, no treasure searches in corridors. You don't want to make gold too easy to get and devalue listed treasure.

But I don't want to starve them for gold either . I need to find some balance, though. One major difference between the EU and NA versions as I stated above is also the apothecary. Especially with monsters with multiple bodypoints, I expect they will use more potions - so I can't really see myself reducing the number of searches to even less than the EU version of the game. Using just rooms + furniture is already less than that. Argh!

Say, can someone access this link?

https://www.printerstudio.de/design/dn_ ... 4DA446F776

Just a try

Not me, it resolves back to https://www.printerstudio.de/index.aspx so I guess there's a session ID in that link you posted.

[knightkrawler]

Not me, it resolves back to https://www.printerstudio.de/index.aspx so I guess there's a session ID in that link you posted.

Same for me.

[Maurice76]

Below is my Treasure Search analysis, across the first three quest books. Note that I've used the version as made by Slev, downloaded from his website, though I think they're fairly spot-on with respect to the original quest books. Furthermore, I've excluded Treasure Searches from Pit Traps. The four columns below are from left to right the amount of Treasure Searches possible according to the European rules (1 search per room and corridor), according to the American rules (1 search per room, per Hero), performing 1 search per room plus 1 search for each piece of furniture and the fourth column is the weighted suggestion I made above with respect to chamber size. I've used the distinction of 1 search for 6 and 12 tile chambers, 2 searches for 15 and 16 tile chambers, 3 searches for the 20 tile chambers and 4 for the central chamber.

Questbook 1: The Gathering Storm	Europe	America	Furniture	Weighted
Quest 1: The Rescue of Sir Ragnar	18	40	16	21
Quest 2: Prince Magnus' Gold	20	40	14	20
Quest 3: Lair of the Orc Warlord	11	36	15	18
Quest 4: Melar's Maze	21	40	17	22
Quest 5: Castle of Mystery	10	40	10	23
Quest 6: Race from the Dark	18	52	18	26
Quest 7: The Stone Mage	17	40	15	22
Quest 8: Legacy of the Orc Warlord	19	32	13	16
Quest 9: The Fire Mage	26	48	17	26
Quest 10: The Bastion of Chaos	25	52	22	28
Quest 11: The Trial	19	44	25	26
Quest 12: Barak Tor - Barrow of the Witch Lord	27	40	14	19
Quest 13: Quest for the Spirit Blade	20	40	13	20
Quest 14: Return to Barak Tor	23	40	12	18
Questbook total	274	584	221	305
Questbook 2: Kellar's Keep	Europe	America	Furniture	Weighted
Quest 1: The Great Gate	19	28	14	18
Quest 2: The Warrior Halls	18	36	10	18
Quest 3: The Spiral Passage	20	36	12	16
Quest 4: The Dwarven Forge	24	40	21	21
Quest 5: Hall of the Dwarven Kings	14	12	7	10
Quest 6: The Great Citadel	23	56	26	32
Quest 7: The Eastern Passage	22	40	15	21
Quest 8: Belorn's Mine	18	24	10	8
Quest 9: The East Gate	15	36	16	22
Quest 10: Grin's Crag	20	40	15	22
Questbook total	193	348	146	188
Questbook 3: Return of the Witch Lord	Europe	America	Furniture	Weighted
Quest 1: The Gate of Doom	24	40	15	21
Quest 2: The Cold Halls	18	44	14	24
Quest 3: The Silent Passages	19	52	18	23
Quest 4: The Halls of Vision	23	40	12	20
Quest 5: The Gate of Bellthor	25	40	15	24
Quest 6: The Halls of the Dead	27	52	16	28
Quest 7: The Forgotten Legion	29	44	11	24
Quest 8: The Forbidden City	29	60	19	33
Quest 9: The Last Gate	24	44	19	24
Quest 10: The Court of the Witch Lord	25	44	13	22
Questbook total	243	460	152	243
Totals	Europe	America	Furniture	Weighted
	710	1392	519	736

[Gold Bearer]

Why don't just double/treble/quadruple the reward GPs