Diagonal Gameplay

[Goblin-King]

Diagonal movement pros:
- It's intuitive to just move freely in any direction.
- You can cross distances faster which feels good to the players.
- It's easier to manouvre between and around monsters.

Diagonal movement cons:
- Assuming diagonal attacks as well, you can get surrounded by 8 attacking monsters.
- You get weirdness when models literally cut corners.
- You get weirdness when a model slides between two diagonally adjacent models or furniture.
- It's hard to make a roadblock of models because of the above point.

[TMU]

- You get weirdness when models literally cut corners.
- You get weirdness when a model slides between two diagonally adjacent models or furniture.
- It's hard to make a roadblock of models because of the above point.

What if the diagonal movement would only be allowed in rooms, double hallways and then also only if no monsters/furniture would be blocking the way?

[knightkrawler]

I love using diagonal movement as something of a skill. Like some heroes and monsters in my game can move to a diagonal square (on the count of 2 movement points) "through" two obstacles that are adcacent to both his position and his target square.
I won't take these tactics from the game.

And yes, movement rolls are importnat, not as a ritual, but as a prop. And that makes counting squares important.
I don't understand why you didn't use hexes in the first place if you wanna have these open directions...
Also, how do you play on a board that big? I mean, physically how? Or is it a computer game?
Are there diagonal attacks in your game? Because it would be a illogical under your premise to keep them. So, can 8 figures attack one and the same defendant in the same round?

[cornixt]

I have no problem with diagonal movement. On the HQ board you are gaining so few extra squares that it is not worth worrying about. My only concern would be that it is a fun upgrade to give to some monsters or characters like the elf, so if everyone has it then it isn't as interesting.

[mitchiemasha]

But I can tell you that I eliminated the need to roll die for movement and gave each character a set distance of movement.

BAH! Boring! Sorry but it's true. Nothing fun about knowing how far someone can, can't move. Unless using a zone system instead of actual spaces, like zombicide. Which removes your issue of diagonal.

Action Points are good too but fixed movement distance is simply a big NO from me.

[whitebeard]

It is not about board size, it is about room size. Assuming square tiles, small HQ type rooms with doors and regular corridors then the benefit of diagonal movement is minor. In classic WarHammer Quest most heroes have a movement of only 4, so diabonal allows the team to stay in formation around corners, etc. WQ also prohibits corner cutting. See the Rule Book pages 17 and 18 for diagonal movement. Silver Tower is simillar but there the squares on the board are not necessarily in a regular grid.

In your scale, traveling 2 squares forward is said to be 10 feet. So traveling 2 squares diagonally covers 14 feet of real distance. Please measure it for yourself if this is not clear. 2 squares diagonally is then very close to 3 movements. And in a large open space the range of your movement and attacks will look funny if you do not approximately correct for it.

"Why can i reach this guy way over here, and not this guy who is physically much closer?"

As a miniature game, some level of perceptably correctness is going to be desirable in large open spaces. You should play test whatever rule you are using with some friends. I would certainly call you out for how silly it looks. In your first post you mentioned that you have already encountered friction. I'm doing my part and giving you more.

[sorcerersapprentice]

Excellent guys - so many bricks, and thrown at the system - good job. Thank you.
So I'll muse over these questions one by one and we'll see where it goes.

Diagonal movement pros:
- It's intuitive to just move freely in any direction.
+agreed.

- You can cross distances faster which feels good to the players.
+agreed.

- It's easier to manouvre between and around monsters.
+agreed - but there are penalties for some movements and some players ( there are 21 characters in Geas, all players are equal - but not in the same way and some players Cannot move between monsters. This is defined by an additional movement based variable.)

Diagonal movement cons:
- Assuming diagonal attacks as well, you can get surrounded by 8 attacking monsters.
+agreed. Monsters/NPC's can also move and attack diagonally. But Monsters in Geas have AI - and may not necessarily clamber to fill the empty space around a player blindly as in HQ. There are currently over 60 possible things they might do per turn.

- You get weirdness when models literally cut corners.
+Okay this is a new point I haven't considered. I set up a visual example and I see what you mean. But just because a model/figure physically cuts through the space of an inner room for instance in making this manouevure doesn't mean a figurative cutting through. So I would simply allow the player to 'skirt' across the diagonal using suspended disbelief to imagine they stuck close to the wall to do so as one might when turning into an alley in a hurry.
Thanks that was a helpful point to raise!

- You get weirdness when a model slides between two diagonally adjacent models or furniture.
+ Any weirdness can be plausible. Not all players can do this in GEAS - only small ones can get into tiny gaps and only fast ones can move between monsters. Hiding may be a necessary tactic for smaller characters or an explorative requirement.

- It's hard to make a roadblock of models because of the above point.
+It may be hard in Geas to 'roadblock' some characters but not others. Players use their different strengths to work together in more complex environments set up to factor in the diagonal movement allowance. I can't say more - but this means moving diagonally is not risk free, nor always the best choice. There are obstacles too that diagonal movement cannot overcome.

-What if the diagonal movement would only be allowed in rooms, double hallways and then also only if no monsters/furniture would be blocking the way?
+This requires an extra rule that simply doesn't need to be there - and an extra governance on the part of the Architect (Evil Wizard) who needs to operate two ruling systems. If Players and monsters can move diagonally at all times it simplifies the game for both them and us.

-I love using diagonal movement as something of a skill. Like some heroes and monsters in my game can move to a diagonal square (on the count of 2 movement points) "through" two obstacles that are adcacent to both his position and his target square. I won't take these tactics from the game.
+Geas treats diagonal movement in certain situations as a benefit of a certain extra skill. But players and monsters are free to move diagonally at all times - and - ALL weapons can be used diagonally too. In heroquest I believe only the spear could do that.

-And yes, movement rolls are importnat, not as a ritual, but as a prop. And that makes counting squares important.
+ If users wish to keep movement by dice, they can. If not, they can discard it. The advantage of not using die to move is that a little more complexity can be added in somewhere else. My systems maximise every move to its extent to economize action.

-I don't understand why you didn't use hexes in the first place if you wanna have these open directions...
+ I don't like hexes I like squares. And I can still have open directions using squares.

- Also, how do you play on a board that big? I mean, physically how? Or is it a computer game?
+ Good question. I have it set up on a pool table. Yep its huge - (partly why I have included an option to remove die rolls) its truly huge both in its size parameters and what you can do within them - but it doesn't require much more physical reaching , it fits on an average table and I am streamlining the set-up of game components that players use to economize space required to set them out. If you want a huge scale game, you gotta break a few eggs.

-Are there diagonal attacks in your game?
+Yes - everyone/everything can attack/defend diagonally.

-Because it would be a illogical under your premise to keep them. So, can 8 figures attack one and the same defendant in the same round?
+If you make certain assumptions that this operates with rules from Heroquest yes it would be illogical - however, players and monsters in Geas take turns. Not as groups, but as individuals.
So player 1 has their turn. Monster A has theirs. player 2 has their turn. Monster B has theirs. and so on. This allows a lot of intense and calculated strategy to maximise individual and group movements, tactics, actions, alike. In reply to your other question - 8 figures could theoretically attack a single player - but more than 4 would likely be lethal. So you try not to move to where you can be surrounded by 8 figures.

-I have no problem with diagonal movement. On the HQ board you are gaining so few extra squares that it is not worth worrying about. My only concern would be that it is a fun upgrade to give to some monsters or characters like the elf, so if everyone has it then it isn't as interesting.
+agreed. Which is why even though all figures can move diagonally - there is still an extra x-factor that some characters have, that others do not. And those characters that don't have that x-factor, have a y-factor or z-factor. That keeps things very interesting.

I'm not prosetylising and trying to convert everyone over to using Diagonal. As I did mention, my system is modular, so it is optional for a different style of play not mandatory. Don't want it? Just switch it off. You can still play my game without moving diagonally.

Like anyone presenting anything new I stand like so many have on the side of the heretic, the dangerous, the scandalous until one day over time the witchcraft becomes classic doctrine Like Gygax, writing D&D.

I developed the system further through being presented with some of these challenges, so thank you very much, that's what I am here to do - and asked help with. It's not an over-night thing, to know if something can work you have to write the theory, test it physically, query it logically, nurture and refine it - and then hand it to others to see if they can break it. Because other humans are awesome at breaking things, and when you can see how its broken, you can know where its weak and focus on fixing that. Even now I don't see any issues with the system I've created for diagonal

- it will require players to adjust their bravado or familiar playing styles and challenge them in ways they are not expecting, push their brains and skills as individuals and a team to solve problems the dungeons present them. It will encourage far more realistic battle and simply striding into the centre of a room, is suicide. As it would actually be.

- on the Architect's (Evil Wizard) side it opens up a whole new realm of explorative dungeon structuring, using adjacent objects to manouevre or lead the players into using diagonal - possibly at their peril. It allows all kinds of doorway tactics, corner tactics, faster movement across a giant board, new strategical formations and thinking where that old school chuck the toughest in front like a shield no longer applies, where players will be thrown into a new world and a ton of new experiences - what some might call, an adventure.

[I'm not sure of who is keeping tabs on Geas here, but the game will be able to be played WITH or WITHOUT a DM, and across distance, so I can play with Whitebeard and cornixt, or cornixt can play with mitchiemasha without needing to be in the same room, or country.] I think only a single game allows that: Chess.

[sorcerersapprentice]

Oops a new reply while I was writing mine.

t is not about board size, it is about room size. Assuming square tiles, small HQ type rooms with doors and regular corridors then the benefit of diagonal movement is minor. In classic WarHammer Quest most heroes have a movement of only 4, so diabonal allows the team to stay in formation around corners, etc. WQ also prohibits corner cutting. See the Rule Book pages 17 and 18 for diagonal movement. Silver Tower is simillar but there the squares on the board are not necessarily in a regular grid.

In your scale, traveling 2 squares forward is said to be 10 feet. So traveling 2 squares diagonally covers 14 feet of real distance. Please measure it for yourself if this is not clear. 2 squares diagonally is then very close to 3 movements. And in a large open space the range of your movement and attacks will look funny if you do not approximately correct for it.
+While some aspects of a game amplify a realistic application - others require a suspension of disbelief. Assume squares are a single unit. Travelling north 2 squares is 2 units. travelling North East 2 squares, is 2 units.

"Why can i reach this guy way over here, and not this guy who is physically much closer?"
+I'm not sure I understand the reference?

As a miniature game, some level of perceptably correctness is going to be desirable in large open spaces. You should play test whatever rule you are using with some friends. I would certainly call you out for how silly it looks. In your first post you mentioned that you have already encountered friction. I'm doing my part and giving you more.
+You wish you were lol. So you would 'call me out', because moving diagonally and covering the same distance as moving adjacent boggles your mind?

[whitebeard]

+You wish you were lol. So you would 'call me out', because moving diagonally and covering the same distance as moving adjacent boggles your mind?

No. I told you this works fine for WHQ where space is tight and large moves are uncommon. Rules are rules and following this one is clear.

I call you out on the rediculousness which is moving 41% faster and shooting 41% further on the diagonal. If you can't understand how this is a reasonable objection a potential buyer/player can pose, then I can't help you.

[sorcerersapprentice]

So serious

When a queen moves 2 squares on the chessboard up down or diagonal - is she ever accused of moving three?

In case it is not clear - I AM aware that diagonal distance in the real world is longer, a 1" square being 1.4" on the diagonal etc - but I am choosing to ignore it (because its a game) and play Geas like one plays chess. That doesn't mean You have to.