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Can the Wizard be improved?

Discuss general topics relating to HeroQuest that don't fit well in the categories below.

Re: Can the Wizard be improved?

Postby whitebeard » August 28th, 2016, 9:19 am

Striker wrote:I'm also cautious of adding my own artifacts, more keen to tweak the rules, like a ranged 'fireball' attack, just something to give him more punch-nothing OP, far from it.


An artifact is house rule on a card. And you don't need the card. When the wizard is due for that next level of performance, he finds something new on a bookshelf.

Striker wrote:Or spend a MP to recast, so you play a spell, roll a dice, if you roll.less than your MP you keep the spell, MP is reduced by one.


The issue with this is how do you deal with multiple Tempest and Healing? Multiples of these is overpowering and ruins well designed quests. Tempest has a nasty habit of resulting in a boss never even getting to attack, which is anti climactic. Storing Tempest in a spell ring needs a house rule for the same reason. Tempest should never be allowed in the same room in consecutive turns (because it is no fun), the idea being that the first one has not completely dissipated yet and the second one would result in a violent maelstrom encompassing the whole room (and preventing attacks from outside the room to inside as well).
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Re: Can the Wizard be improved?

Postby Count Mohawk » August 28th, 2016, 10:49 am

Striker wrote:Ooo, whats your system?is that in the wizard house rules?

Normally, when the Wizard casts a spell, he has to discard the card. In the collaboration between Anderas, slev and I, most Spell cards now have an alternative method of casting: instead of discarding the card, you can choose to roll a :roll6: and add the spell's "difficulty level". If the total is less than or equal to your current Mind Points, the spell works, otherwise it doesn't - but either way, the card remains in your hand, available to cast again on a future turn. The system is a little more complicated than that (some cards can't be re-cast; others cost one or more Mind Points), but very intuitive once you figure out how it works.

This particular system appears in the Clearing-House thread around page 14 or so. Anderas uses it in his custom ruleset, and slev uses it in his custom ruleset (aso an external link).

I, on the other hand, am a complexity junkie, so I do something a little different. Check the link "The Wizard's Expanded Spellbook" in my signature, if you dare!


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Re: Can the Wizard be improved?

Postby mitchiemasha » August 28th, 2016, 12:01 pm

either too late or too early


As it's been said... it's never too early. if you need it use it.


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Re: Can the Wizard be improved?

Postby Goblin-King » August 28th, 2016, 12:24 pm

Or you know... Use the WoM expansion to just give him an additional deck or two.


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Re: Can the Wizard be improved?

Postby Striker » August 28th, 2016, 1:41 pm

Wow, thanks, Ill have a look through those tomes :).

The difficulty I have is that I have no testing time, but in my limited experience, there are situation where the wizard has to use an attack spell due to his low BP and then we found he ended up just having passive spells....intuition suggests that either more attack options via spells or a repetitive magic attack.

I have Morcar so i could use the extra spells....I'll be back when I have properly read the proposals and have some questions or ideas!! a very tired daughter to put to bed :)

thanks fellow questers!!!!
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Re: Can the Wizard be improved?

Postby cornixt » August 29th, 2016, 9:39 am

I came up with a system that allows re-use of every spell and an upgrade path for the wizard:
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=2800&start=10
Never finished it 100% since I went on to develop the system for a HQ variation game that isn't quite compatible.


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Re: Can the Wizard be improved?

Postby slev » August 30th, 2016, 8:54 am

Striker wrote:Wow, thanks, Ill have a look through those tomes :).

The difficulty I have is that I have no testing time, but in my limited experience, there are situation where the wizard has to use an attack spell due to his low BP and then we found he ended up just having passive spells....intuition suggests that either more attack options via spells or a repetitive magic attack.

I have Morcar so i could use the extra spells....I'll be back when I have properly read the proposals and have some questions or ideas!! a very tired daughter to put to bed :)

thanks fellow questers!!!!



Looking back through the early posts where Anderas and I hashed out the ideas from a vague concept to a functioning system sure takes me back.

I've tested the system, although not as extensively as I'd like, could still be some odd combos in there. It shoudl be stable enough for you to have a go with though, especially as MoHawk combed through the numbers.

I've found that with my "Advanced game" the Wizard is ballenced against the other Heroes, and this balence seems to stay in place as the Heroes progressed.


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Re: Can the Wizard be improved?

Postby Striker » September 6th, 2016, 5:06 am

Hi, sorry for my absence, I was discussing the issue with a game designer /co player, we thought that a simple addition of a ranged fireball with he same stats as his regular attack might just be enough to tip the balamce-noy tested yet.

I'm now more intrigued by your revision due to your comments and testing and will have a look tonight but would like to know if this is just for the wizard or does it tweak all players?also do you have it in pdf or a file? And is there a legend for the symbols?. I'm new to this and I've seen a lot of cards with symbols that aren't immediately intuitive.
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Re: Can the Wizard be improved?

Postby Anderas » September 6th, 2016, 6:26 am

Striker wrote:we thought that a simple addition of a ranged fireball with he same stats as his regular attack might just be enough to tip the balamce-noy tested yet.


It is even enough to tip the balance the other direction, in fact.

We had to limit the fireball by letting it cost two mind points each time it is fired, otherwise it would become too strong.

Basically, we carefully cut the spell range and cost from the effect. In the original it is quite mixed.
Slev uses more keywords and symbols than i, but the basis behind is the same:

In the original you pay your cast action and the card ( you have to discard it). All the spells cost the same, so based on cost vs effect, some are "good" and some are not.

We noted that and invented spells that would cost more, or less. If that fits to the spell's effect, each spell might be worthy in the end.
Now the payment options on the spells are: The mastery test, the cast action, the card, one or more body points and one or more mind points, movement points or the entire movement phase, and anything else that comes to your mind.

A mastery test is, you roll a d6, add the indicated number. For a success you must stay equal or below your current mind points. If you miss, you may pay the difference in mind points in order to make it work by brute force. You pay any other cost after the mastery test is done, but regardless if it was a hit or a miss.

Ah, important: And we gave the wizard the ability to heal 1 Mind Point, on the cost of one cast action.


So if you invent a spell with a mastery test of one, and a cost of one mind point, then you can cast it two, maybe three times, but then you really run out of mind points and have to make some pause before you start casting again.

For Fireball, for example, a cost of cast action and discard of the spell is too much. You lose your offensive capability for an effect that anybody can do with a sword, and that can be frustrating.
We made it cost the cast action, a mastery test of 1 and 1 MP. That was too low. The wizard was casting only that spell all the time, forgetting all the others.
We changed the cost to "cast action, mastery test of 1 and 2MP". That is enough. it is used, but not all the time. Perfect!
ImageImage

You can find my spells here. I was adding a fourth spell to each group. This expansion is totally untested so be careful with that.


After some test games, i was deciding to give my fireball variant an alternative cost: If you're out of Mind Points but you desperately need to cast the fireball, you may discard it like in former times.
The two black dice have 4 sides with skulls each, so this is exactly the same like dealing 2BP damage and make a saving roll on 5+ like on the original card. It is also written that the damage is fire damage: This is totally unimportant except if the target has a special rule regarding fire damage. In my system, for example, the wall of fire is totally immune to fire damage. Against almost anything else, this is just normal damage.

It is worth noting, that the entire system works only if you have some time pressure mechanism working.
We use the Evil Wizard deck, others use some token system that can activate special abilities of Monsters if you take too long.
If you give the players unlimited turns to recover, then the entire system comes apart.


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Re: Can the Wizard be improved?

Postby slev » September 6th, 2016, 6:59 am

Striker wrote:I'm now more intrigued by your revision due to your comments and testing and will have a look tonight but would like to know if this is just for the wizard or does it tweak all players?also do you have it in pdf or a file? And is there a legend for the symbols?. I'm new to this and I've seen a lot of cards with symbols that aren't immediately intuitive.


I used the new spell system as part of my "advanced rules", which does tweak the other heroes slightly too. My "basic" game just cleans up the original and re-presents it, but uses the original magic system. My advanced game also adds an extra shop with wizardy goodies, plus a large number of extra Spell Groups, and an experience system.

Several years ago, I took to using symbols and keywords, and other people followed suit. Mohawk even helped make a font (based on a font that Biff on Old Scratch made for me). I included a summary card in my set.

The symbols save a LOT of text. For example, using "╏,╱: ╣┗┗░" gives us the exact same effect as the classic Fireball spell, but with a LOT less writing.


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