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Rank the 12 spells

Discuss general topics relating to HeroQuest that don't fit well in the categories below.

Re: Rank the 12 spells

Postby Darkforce44 » April 15th, 2013, 11:04 am

Daedalus wrote:
Daedalus wrote:[list=1][*]Heal Body
[*]Water of Healing
My feeling is you win or lose by surviving and accomplishing Quests. These two spells allow that for two reasons. Most obviously, healing keeps you from elimination. But also, a fighting Hero that is healed can continue to fight for multiple rounds, usually causing more damage over many turns than any single spell


I've always felt that because of all the potions of healing, venom antidotes, armband of healing, etc. that you can buy/obtain, that it lowers the value of the healing spells just a little especially since any hero can heal themselves. Just my thoughts and I'm obviously in the minority as almost everyone is putting the healing spells first.

Daedalus wrote:
Daedalus wrote:[*]Courage (I play it can be cast in advance, but only allows it's bonus for 1 attack--otherwise I'd rank it #3.)
1 average hit on top of a melee attack will usually punch through, so I'm switching it to better than Fire of Wrath.


Wouldn't you think that Courage would have to be better than Genie though? A hero with a Broadsword & Courage rolls 5 attack dice just like the Genie but does so for as many turns as is needed to not just kill 1 monster but an entire room full of them.

Daedalus wrote:
Daedalus wrote:[*]Rock Skin
+1/3 chance of cancelling an attack doesn't affect combat a lot, especially when it can be cancelled. I feel it's just as likely to be cancelled as it is to remain in effect and convert to a white shield that is needed.


Good point. I need to move Rock Skin down from #7 to #9 on my list.
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Re: Rank the 12 spells

Postby Darkforce44 » April 15th, 2013, 11:12 am

Goblin-King wrote:Earth is definitely better than water.


I don't know man.... I'd say they're pretty equal.
Heal body = Water of Healing
Pass Through Rock is slightly better than Veil of Mist
Sleep is slightly better than Rock Skin

Goblin-King wrote:All in all given the nature of the game there are too few actual damage spells.
|_P :2cents:


|_P

The Road Warrior wrote:For what it's worth, I have written a quest where Swift Wind comes in very useful & I also have an idea for a quest puzzle that makes use of Veil of Mist.


The only time I can see Swift Wind being very useful in the original quests/expansions is to outrun the boulder in that KK's level.

Always interesting hearing the vast differences in the EU version though. That's weird that you don't even need LOS for Fire of Wrath!
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Re: Rank the 12 spells

Postby Thrawn » April 15th, 2013, 11:52 am

My big answer... it depends...

Early Game -

1/2 Heal Body and Water of Healing
These two spells are your lifeline in the early game. You don't yet have a supply of healing potions, and without having full armor yet, the heroes are going to take hits. These extra 8 body points is often the difference of heroes living or dying.

3 Courage
+2 attack is huge when only one hero is swinging more than two dice. This usually gets saved for the "the big fight" and gives that extra punch to one of the heroes to get through thtat battle.

4 Genie
With early game heroes, this is the deadliest attack available. The only thing that matches it is a barbarian (or someone else with an upgraded weapon) with courage. Picking the right time to use a genie usually turns one of the biggest fights in the adventure to the heroes advantage. The fact that it can hit targets at range gives it some big advantages over Courage, but it still is only a single attack.

5 Ball of Flame
Early game when the elf and dwarf are attacking with 2 dice, a two hit ball of flame is still pretty strong. It's easier to defend (since it gives 1/3 saves per die instead of 1/6), but two automatic hits is the equivalent to an average 4 die attack. Good timing of this spell usually won't turn the hardest fights, but is good for picking off key targets that you don't want getting to attack the heroes.

6 Tempest
This spell has typically been key for big fights. It can stop a key badguy (like a gargoyle or sorcerer) from going on the offensive for a turn, which gives time to either clean up minions, or try to take down the target before they can retaliate. One turn of a caster not casting back at the heroes is huge, as is avoiding a 4 die attack for a round.

7 Sleep
Sleep is potentially a lot stronger than tempest, but in the base sets, the targets you'd most like to put to sleep are the ones who are most resistant. However, even casting sleep on a goblin at the right time can bottle up a corridor or room to give the heroes a distinct tactical advantage, and it can be very helpful against orcs and fimirs as well. (If your elf goes first, it can be a great spell on the elf to get a attack advantage before the monster's turn.)

8 Rock Skin
Rock skin is underrated especially early game. One extra defense die is as much as a 50% increase in defense. The key is that it is of better use trying to defend weaker attacks than strong ones. Don't save it for the big battles. Use it to help deflect the stray hits from goblins, skeletons, and zombies. Body points are your most important resource, and saving one or two here or there is huge.

9 Fire of Wrath
Fire of wrath looks better at first glance than it already is. With 1 automatic hit, it's like an average 2 die attack. However, chances to defend are doubled. In other words, if the elf has this spell, they are better off swinging their short sword than casting. They should do damage twice as often. However, it is ranged, so you can potentially snipe a key target at a time when the group doesn't yet have ranged weapons.

10/11/12 Veil of Mist, Pass Through Rock, Swift Wind
These are situational spells, but can also be lifesavers. I've seen them used a number of times either to get good positioning, or to get out of bad positioning when Zargon's forces sprung a trap.


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Re: Rank the 12 spells

Postby Goblin-King » April 15th, 2013, 11:55 am

Darkforce44 wrote:I've always felt that because of all the potions of healing, venom antidotes, armband of healing, etc. that you can buy/obtain, that it lowers the value of the healing spells just a little especially since any hero can heal themselves. Just my thoughts and I'm obviously in the minority as almost everyone is putting the healing spells first.

American detected! In the EU version there are no potion shops.
You only get healing from spells or treasure cards (and drawing a card might as well kill you!).
And treasure items doesn't carry over to next quest by the way.

If we played by US rules I'd probably rank the healing spells lower, but here in the EU they are god damn important.

I plain out disagree on the "Sleep is slightly better than Rock Skin" part. All depends on playstyle I guess...


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Re: Rank the 12 spells

Postby Thrawn » April 15th, 2013, 12:15 pm

When the party is decked out (after about quest 8-10) -

1 Courage
+2 attack never loses it's luster. When used on a battle axe instead of a shortsword wielding hero, it's only a 50% increase instead of a 100% increase, but it still converts to an average of 1 extra skull per swing in a big fight.

2/3 Heal Body and Water of Healing
As the game goes on, the heroes will stock up on armor, meaning there will be less hits except in the "big fights". They will stock up on healing potions which become one of the biggest commodities in the game. As a result, these spells basically become commodities as well. Instead of being the lifeline for the heroes, they instead become 2 less healing potions per game that need to be used, allowing the group to stock away more. This is still extremely valuable. Over the course of 34 quests through the first 3 sets, this is 68 healing potions saved. That should get the group through at least 2-3 quests in the barbarian or elf packs.


4 Tempest
As the game goes on, you see more big battles, where freezing the main villain for a turn is even more important than early on. Casters are the main target, but other "bosses" can be equally advantageous to freeze for a round. I find using the spell ring for 2 rounds of peace using this spell becomes fairly common with a good wizard (and frustrating for Zargon who never gets to throw cool chaos spells around.)


5 Genie
Although a 5 die attack is still very nice, when the other heroes can be swinging 4 dice every turn (if they go the battleaxe route), it no longer is the same kind of advantage as it is in the early game when the normal attack is 2 dice. It still hit's at range, and that extra 5 die attack can come in handy when a group beatdown is required on a big baddie, but it just isn't the same as when the caster is the only one rolling the handfull of dice.


6 Sleep
Sleep doesn't really change much until later spell packs where there are creatures tailor made to be sleep targets. It's still a middle of the road spell, although I move it up spots due to other spells becoming less useful.



7 Ball of Flame
This spell really falls off late game. It's the equivalent of an average battleaxe hit (2 skulls), except the monster is twice as likely to defend per die. The wizard isn't hitting for much damage still, but the elf is probably worse off in most cases by using this spell over just attacking unless the defender has really high defense. It still has it's uses either to snipe or to damage high defense enemies, but normal attacks will have passed up the usefulness of this spell.


8/9/10 Veil of Mist, Pass Through Rock, Swift Wind
These are still situational. However, there will be more need to save oneself as the game progresses, and some of the other spells just fall off in usefulness. They don't get stronger, but when a situation comes up where one is needed, it's huge.

11 Rock Skin
When most heros have 5-6 dice in defense, the temporary 1 extra die doesn't mean quite as much. I usually end up seeing the wizard casting it on themself early just to hopefully avoid a wound or two before in burns out. With healing potions so prevailant at this point, that 1 or 2 wounds of attrition doesn't mean quite as much though.

12 Fire of Wrath
This spell really falls off a ton. It can be used to snipe, and is somewhat useful against high defense targets, but the damage is so far outclassed by the normal attacks of the game, that the spell is pretty much forgettable after the early game. It often goes unused at the end of quests.


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Re: Rank the 12 spells

Postby The Road Warrior » April 15th, 2013, 12:39 pm

Darkforce44 wrote:Always interesting hearing the vast differences in the EU version though. That's weird that you don't even need LOS for Fire of Wrath!


My Fire of Wrath card starts "This spell may be cast on any one monster or player, anywhere on the board." This is different to the NA card wording here. It also says "inflict one Body point of damage, your opponent can roll a shield on one combat dice.". I've always treated it as a black shield, not any shield which makes the spell quite good.

3 of my spell cards are different to the EU ones here.

Courage - This spell may be cast on any one player. That player may then throw two extra combat dice the next time he attacks. The spell is then discarded.

Rock Skin - This spell may be cast on any one player. That player may then throw two extra combat dice the next time he defends. The spell is then discarded.

Sleep - This spell will put one monster to sleep. They may try to defend themselves by rolling one die per Mind point. If they manage to roll a shield they are unaffected. Once put to sleep they must roll a six at the start of their turn before they can move again.

The difference to the wording in Courage & Rock Skin make the spells a little pointless. The wording for Sleep is a lot more vague, as it doesn't mention what being asleep actually means.
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Re: Rank the 12 spells

Postby Daedalus » April 15th, 2013, 9:48 pm

Darkforce44 wrote:
Daedalus wrote:
Daedalus wrote:[*]Courage (I play it can be cast in advance, but only allows it's bonus for 1 attack--otherwise I'd rank it #3.)
1 average hit on top of a melee attack will usually punch through, so I'm switching it to better than Fire of Wrath.


Wouldn't you think that Courage would have to be better than Genie though? A hero with a Broadsword & Courage rolls 5 attack dice just like the Genie but does so for as many turns as is needed to not just kill 1 monster but an entire room full of them.

My group used to play it that way, where the spell lasted for more than one round. That would easily make it the most powerful offesnive spell for me, ranking it only after healing. However, after reading this thread about the Courage spell, I've decided to interpret the wording so that the spell only lasts for a single attack. Otherwise, this spell seems dramatically overpowered to me, as a Hero with a Broadsword converts the spell to a multi-turn, adjacent-only Genie spell. It totally dominates battles, which is an effect I don't believe the designers intended. Furthermore, it's already part of the most powerful spell group (in my opinion). However, I'm probably in the minority here, as many players enjoy the temporary thrill of a slaying machine.

edit: I've since come to another conclusion in that thread and now treat the duration of Courage as multiple turns. That pushes it up to #3 on my list.
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Re: Rank the 12 spells

Postby Darkforce44 » April 15th, 2013, 9:59 pm

@Road Warrior
Oh that's odd that you have different spell cards. Was there a revision of the EU version or something?


Thrawn wrote:8 Rock Skin
... Don't save it for the big battles. Use it to help deflect the stray hits from goblins, skeletons, and zombies. Body points are your most important resource, and saving one or two here or there is huge.


Ah good point, that is definitely the best way to maximize the spell.


Goblin-King wrote:American detected! In the EU version there are no potion shops.
You only get healing from spells or treasure cards (and drawing a card might as well kill you!).
And treasure items doesn't carry over to next quest by the way.

If we played by US rules I'd probably rank the healing spells lower, but here in the EU they are god damn important.

I plain out disagree on the "Sleep is slightly better than Rock Skin" part. All depends on playstyle I guess...


Well that explains it. In the American version, items carry over and the monster does not wake if he's asleep and gets attacked. Also, Rock Skin only gives 1 extra defend die in the American version not 2.
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Re: Rank the 12 spells

Postby Darkforce44 » April 15th, 2013, 10:16 pm

Daedalus wrote:My group used to play it that way, where the spell lasted for more than one round. That would easily make it the most powerful offesnive spell for me, ranking it only after healing. However, after reading this thread about the Courage spell, I've decided to interpret the wording so that the spell only lasts for a single attack. Otherwise, this spell seems dramatically overpowered to me, as a Hero with a Broadsword converts the spell to a multi-turn, adjacent-only Genie spell. It totally dominates battles, which is an effect I don't believe the designers intended. Furthermore, it's already part of the most powerful spell group (in my opinion). However, I'm probably in the minority here, as many players enjoy the temporary thrill of a slaying machine.


Ah I misinterpreted "I play it can be cast in advance, but only allows it's bonus for 1 attack" to mean IF and only if you cast it in advance would it last for 1 attack and that you played it the normal way (multiple attacks) if cast during combat.

After reading the link you provided, that is really quite interesting. I never thought of it as anything but a multi-turn spell. I'm not sold that it's meant to be only the next attack but I can see how one could argue that to be the case. Given the fact that magic is rather weak in this game, I'll still play it as multi-turn.

This is great stuff though. I like all the nuances and interpretations of these spells.
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Re: Rank the 12 spells

Postby The Admiral » January 9th, 2016, 5:23 pm

Here is my list. The last five were harder to place than the first seven:

1) Tempest
2/3) Healing
4) Courage
5) Ball of Flame
6) Genie
7) Fire of Wrath
8) Sleep
9) Pass Through Rock
10) Rock Skin
11) Veil of Mist
12) Swift Wind


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