Lack of cards in the classic quest packs

[Zenithfleet]

For some reason I'm only just now wondering ... Why did the early quest packs (Kellar's Keep and Return of the Witch Lord) not come with any proper cards?

The EU releases of these two expansions only had a rulebook, a die-cut cardboard sheet, and miniatures.

Against the Ogre Horde didn't have cards either (not even for the four new Ogre monsters - they're on the back cover instead). It used cardboard tokens for the chaos spells, which is a bit weird, although it does allow for a couple of extra effects.

It wasn't until Wizards of Morcar that we actually got a new set of playing cards in the pack: new evil spell cards, new treasure cards, and men-at-arms cards.

In the NA editions, KK and RotWL awkwardly added new 'cards' by including them on the back covers of the questbooks to cut out. It looks like the Barbarian Quest Pack and Elf Quest Pack did include real cards, though. (Is that right?)

Sadly this left the EU quest packs for KK, RotWL and AtOH without much to find or buy in the way of new equipment or Quest Treasures. You were limited to the cards that came with the base game, all the way through.

My best guess is that at least for the EU quest packs, manufacturing reasons and expense stopped the designers from adding new cards in most of the expansions. In Wizards of Morcar, some of the cards are clearly just filler (too many men-at-arms cards). As far as I know, playing cards are usually printed in batches of a certain size, especially back in the day. You need to have enough cards to fill a whole printable deck or it's not going to be cost-effective. (?)

The tokens in Against the Ogre Horde are a strange, fiddly choice for a game that prides itself on simplicity. It feels like a creative but awkward way to get around the manufacturing/cost issue of including cards for just three different spells. I'm willing to bet that the designers wanted to just put the Mind Lock / Blast / Dominate spells on normal cards like any other spell, but couldn't do it because they'd have to fill up a whole playing card deck with other cards for it to be feasible as a product. So they thought, "Well, we have this die-cut sheet ... maybe we can fit the spells onto the cardboard somehow?"

Wizards of Morcar presumably bit the bullet and went for a deck of cards because they wanted to do the evil wizards justice with actual spell cards, and had enough spells to make it worth doing. It's a shame Wizards of Morcar didn't include more cards in place of the filler ones, like new equipment cards. At the very least they could have included a couple of blank cards for you to make your own, the same way they included the blank map in the base game questbook.

Now I want to make sets of cards that should have been in Kellar's Keep and Return of the Witch Lord ...

[lestodante]

optimizing the costs of production may be the answer

[Kurgan]

I agree. The artifacts in the NA editions of these expansions were a new thing, not found in the originals from the EU originals published in 1989. The tiles in the same NA packs are single sided, on thinner card than the Game System tiles (or the tiles in the last two expansions). The Mythic versions that had the white on the back were actually close to this in their own way (while the retail versions of KK & ROTWL have black linen finish on the backs of those same tiles).

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Interesting thoughts, one thing that springs to mind for me, is that whilst I know you like myself are more EA SE orientated than NA, but if you are considering including some 'artefacts' from the NA edition, particularly the non-permanent artefact / Quest Treasure items like "Dust of Disappearance" which is more of a potion, and "Magical Throwing Dagger" would you make these as Quest Treasure / Artefact cards and have them found via the Quest Notes or just make them as new Treasure Cards to bolster the deck?

Also where would you stand around Spell Scrolls and The Alchemist's Shop from a EA SE with NA extras, point of view?

[Zenithfleet]

Interesting thoughts, one thing that springs to mind for me, is that whilst I know you like myself are more EA SE orientated than NA, but if you are considering including some 'artefacts' from the NA edition, particularly the non-permanent artefact / Quest Treasure items like "Dust of Disappearance" which is more of a potion, and "Magical Throwing Dagger" would you make these as Quest Treasure / Artefact cards and have them found via the Quest Notes or just make them as new Treasure Cards to bolster the deck?

Yes, it's a bit tricky to fit the NA 'one use and discard' Artifact cards into the EU game.

The EU game unfortunately didn't really have an official way to cover an item midway in power between 'regular treasure card you can't keep to the next quest' and 'ultra-powerful permanent and rare item like Borin's Armour'.

I think the NA edition had the right idea by adding more mid-range, limited-use items like the Armband of Healing and the Dust of Disappearance--things that are better than ordinary treasure cards, but not as good as the original EU Quest Treasures and their NA equivalents. Putting them all into the Artifact deck was a bit clunky, though, as was making them cut-outs in the questbook. It might have been better to come up with some kind of intermediate category of cards with its own deck, such as Relics. Alternatively, they could have been put on the die-cut sheet somehow. Spell scrolls, especially, should have had their own distinct cards backs or be tokens from the die-cut sheet, because you need to mix them up face-down before you draw one.

I made some EU versions of the NA Artifacts years ago for this site--though I didn't always do a great job with the EU wording, and I think I forgot to include a few. In my own games, I tried putting a few of them onto Treasure cards, but that didn't really work.

The problem is that some of these NA items are a) quite powerful, and b) not really the sort of thing it feels right to discard at the end of each quest, per the strict EU rules about returning Treasure cards (potions etc) at the end of the quest. With potions and the like you can imagine that they 'go off,' i.e. have a magical expiry date or something, but I can't see why a hero would throw away his magical throwing dagger or armband of healing after completing a quest. It breaks immersion for me (yes it happens ).

On the other hand, some players write down what they get from the Treasure deck and keep it from game to game--which technically you shouldn't do, but a lot of people probably do it anyway (as I did for a long time). But you don't really want players farming 20-30 magical throwing daggers or elixirs of life by repeatedly getting them out of the Treasure deck and keeping them. Even one per quest could add up quickly.

For EU I think the simplest solution is just to make the NA Artifacts more Quest Treasures and insert them into specific quests as needed with the Notes. Not necessarily where they were in the NA game, though. For instance, the Rabbit Boots are kind of goofy, and not really something you'd expect to get from Skulmar in RotWL. Maybe putting them in Castle of Mystery in the base game would be more appropriate, as creations of the crazy wizard who built that place?

Also where would you stand around Spell Scrolls and The Alchemist's Shop from a EA SE with NA extras, point of view?

I really like spell scrolls, and made EU versions of the fronts (including ones for the Chaos Spells, at the cost of a mind point when you cast one). But I think they ought to have distinct card backs, so that they can form their own little deck that you can shuffle and randomly draw from. I especially like the way you can often get them from the sorcerer's table furniture in the NA edition. More interaction with the furniture is always a good thing in my book. Spell scrolls could also be cardboard tokens (like the Ogre Horde chaos spells) so that you can put them all face-down and mix them up before drawing one. They wouldn't need to have all the text of the spell on them because you could just refer to the standard spell card for the details.

The Alchemist's Shop is a weird one. The potions are ridiculously overpriced, and fairly useless or incredibly specialised. I think I'd use them more for inspiration: turn them into Treasure cards, as I think Sjeng did, or put them into quest notes as things to find, etc. Or leave them as is and have it be a kind of joke that some dodgy goblin in Kellar's Keep is trying to sell you this expensive junk.


Edit: By the way, when I said I want to make a set of cards that should have been in KK and RotWL, I was thinking more along the lines of unusual 'events' in the treasure deck, and new Equipment cards to buy/find.

For instance, when playing RotWL you could insert a couple of treasure cards where you're all attacked by vampire bats, or spooked by a ghost. Effectively traps but more atmospheric and themed.

[Kurgan]

If you're asking me (was typing my short, boring answer while you were posting your rich, well thought out one, lol), I'd rather have them as special treasure. We did play one time with them in the deck, because we were trying specifically to boost the party fast (which that did... those artifacts help a LOT). I think we actually did play with the EU spells at that time (by accident, I had printed them basically from Ye Olde Inn but forgotten that clicking the flags give you different results).

Also, wasn't "Artefact" a fan thing? Because I thought they were just referred to as "Quest Treasures" in the EU editions (I guess we're all playing some hybrid edition now). Of course "quest treasures" in the NA edition refers to that which is in the quest notes rather than specific to any deck. When people are having good ideas, I'm learning to just step back and let it happen anymore...

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Handling Treasure Cards

My implementation varies subtly around handling of Treasure Cards than the official editions.

• “Bad” cards (including the "nothing" card) are returned to the deck after they have been actioned, and the deck shuffled, as per the standard rules.

• “Good - Gold” treasure cards, those with a GC value, are placed with your character sheet and are then totalled up at the end of the Quest (and then returned to the deck ready for the next game), no real difference here apart from the limited book-keeping is kept out of the dungeon.

• “Good - Other” treasure card that don't have a GC value, potions mostly, are placed with your character sheet until they are used, in this or subsequent dungeons, when used they are discarded as usual and are then returned to the deck for subsequent Quests.

This gets around the issues of having them “expire” in the standard rules, unfair if you find a vial of Holy Water and there happens to be no Undead in the Quest, or a great potion in the last room, or when doing a clearance sweep that you can't then use, or end up using Heroic Brew and a Potion of Strength combination on a Wandering Goblin, just because you are going to have to discard them anyway or using a Potion of Healing because you find it in the last room and might as well use it and then dying for a lack of one early in the next Quest

It also avoids the issues introduced by allowing the stockpiling of potions (and the impact on game balance) because if you don't use for example the Potion of Strength in the Quest that you find it, then it won't be in the deck for the next Quest because it will be issued with your character card at the start. This way the more you use potions, the more are available but the maximum limit on the availability remains capped by the number in the deck.

That blurb aside, you are right when you state the SE version was binary in that it split Treasure Cards that were single use, one shot, disposable and Quest Treasures that were permanent and unique, but the NA edition introduced some grey areas.

Quest Treasure/Equipment/Treasure Cards

I think for me I approach and resolve this a little differently by splitting the card backs and the card fronts (not physically obviously that would be tricky and messy but mentally)

Card Backs - Equipment, Treasure, Quest Treasure are purely functional in that they provide a quick reference for the EWP when sorting the cards for the first quest (or expansions)

• Equipment Card back means put it in Equipment Card deck for heroes to purchase Between Quests
• Treasure Card back means put in in the Treasure deck to draw
• Quest Treasure back means keep it to one side ready to be dished out as per Quest Notes

However I rule that once an equipment card or quest treasure is used (single/limited use ones ) or lost, it recycles back into the Equipment Card deck at the end of the Quest for (re)purchase and I don't see any reason why Quest Treasure Cards cannot have a cost on them and work exactly the same way

Advantages - more to spend gold on, mitigates issues aroud loss of key QTs

You could even do the same with Treasure Cards but that may be a bridge too far

I have also introduced some additional EQ/QT cards particularly for KK and ROTWL (and a few for GS) and beyond, some purely to plug the hole for the Wizard "quote" list here but some for all characters (will post below)

Also bear in mind that my cards limit purchase, if the card is not there you cannot buy it (no intending to rehash this argument here, it is covered elsewhere, just mentioning it so you know these are generally unique cards

Note: Spell Scrolls are a whole different topic (I'm not a fan) but I'm not going to cover that right now

Other Cards: Monster, Special Monster, Spell and Trap Cards

New Monster Cards

Adopt the principle that all monsters should come with a monster card, even unique ones. For example: the Shape changer, the Skeletons of Ancient Dwarvern Kings, Doomguard, Ulag, Grak, Gragor, Balur (and ideally a distinct figure but that is a different debate)

Spell Cards

All spells to be on spell cards, in a standard format, unlike those in Frozen Horror and AtOH which seem to follow an entirely different logic (all rules about how to handle spells would be in the rulebook, the spell cards would cover ‘what’ a spell does)

Trap Cards

Another thing that I would consider if I was building a card deck for existing and future quests (which I'm not) would be to create a deck of reference cards for the GM, like the Monster cards, but covering Traps. I know the traps in the basic game are covered on the Screen, but this isn’t extendible. I would consider Trap Cards and that would then be another source of cards for expansions when a new Trap is introduced.

All traps including those from expansions (all rules about how to handle traps in general would be in the rulebook), the trap cards would cover ‘what’ a trap does)

Dart trap, Spear trap, Pit, Falling Block, Rolling Boulder, Swinging Axe and so on

The rationale

I'm often accused of (or less often, complimented on) trying to standardise everything which is true but I'm not trying to do that for its own sake, but in order to construct a suite of tools / devices that a Quest Creator can drop into their quests to facilitate the process of creating quests (and therefore increase the quantity and quality) and then they can customise if they wish, or not if they don’t

The purpose of these changes are many, more stuff to spend gold on to expand the advancement system (especially single or limited use items), more modularity - if spell and trap cards were consistent then a Quest Creator could decide to ‘drop in’ a standard spell or trap or Doomguard or whatever into any Quest by just using the card properties and a reference to the card in the Quest book – Maud the Magnificent is a Doomguard see the Doomguard monster card for details" and perhaps drop in a Dead Fall trap into the game or a Swinging Axe trap without having to dig out 5 expansions and convert them all into the right ‘rule set’ – if you are using a spell from Quest pack x does that mean the spell caster rules from that expansion need to apply to your Quest, all of them or some of them, locate specialised counters and so on.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

List of new Equipment / Quest Treasure (even at a push Treasure) Cards by expansion below.

I have not included new Equipment/Quest Treasure Cards specifically intended for spellcaster in this list as those are listed separately on the Ideas for new Wizard equipment topic

In terms of extra standard Equipment Cards for SE: Dagger, Throwing Knife, Short Bow, Repeating Crossbow, Longsword (covered in more detail on the Rejigging the Equipment Card Deck [SE] topic.

And some rough new ideas to expand our range of ‘Special' Equipment Cards (either by including them in the base game pack or expansions...). As always the assumption is that all of these are Quantity = 1 unless otherwise stated.

Gathering Storm Equipment Cards

Gathering Storm Quest Treasure Cards

Rabbit Boots of Speed
Artefact
The Boots of Speed allow the wearer to roll an extra die when moving but they must discard the lowest die rolled before totalling up

Note: Position swapped with Borin's Armour which is now in ROTWL worn by Skulmar, this one is in Q7 The Stone Hunter

Orcs Bane
Artefact
The sword, Orcs Bane allows you to roll two combat dice in attack. You may attack TWICE if you are fighting Orcs.
WEAPON

Note: Q11 Bastion of Chaos

Potion of Healing
You may drink the potion at any time. It will restore up to four lost Body points. The card is then discarded.
Cost 500 gold coins.

Note: Various quests contain this item, needs a card to represent it.

Spirit Blade
Artefact
Spirit Blade allows you to roll three combat dice in attack OR four dice in attack against undead creatures: Skeletons, Zombies and Mummies
WEAPON

Note: Q13 Quest for the Spirit Blade

Kellar's Keep Equipment Cards
Original came with zero new Equipment Cards, polished comes with 6 new ones; Venom Antidote, Potion of Regeneration, Potion of Magic Resistance, Repeater Crossbow, Wand of Fire, Shield of Spell Catching

Note: These cards are added to the Equipment Card Deck for this and future Quest Packs

Amulet of Spell Catching
Amulet, Artefact
This amulet will absorb the first spell in any Quest, cast directly on the holder, who will ignore all effects. This includes friendly spells!

Potion of Magic Resistance
Potion
You can drink the potion when you are targeted by a mind attack and you may then roll two extra combat dice in defence. Discard after use.
Cost 400 gold coins

Note: Replacement for Mind aspect of Potion of Restoration from NA Edition Alchemist's Shop.

Potion of Regeneration
Potion
Drinking this potion restores one Body point now and restores another Body point at the start of each of your turns until your current Body point total reaches your starting Body point score at which point it stops working and is discarded.
Cost 500 gold coins

Note: Replaces Potion of Restoration from NA Edition Alchemist's Shop.

Shield of Deflection
Shield, Artefact
This shield works like a normal shield and non-magical missile attacks will only count black shields as a hit rather than skulls

Venom Antidote
This bubbling brew tastes foul but heals up to 2 Body Points of damage caused by poison needles or poison darts only. The card is then discarded.
Cost 300 gold coins.

Quantity = 1-2
Note: Ported from NA Edition Alchemist's Shop

Kellar's Keep Quest Treasure Cards

Original came with zero new Quest Treasure Cards, polished comes with 3 new ones; Magic Throwing Knife, Potion of Fire Resistance, Elixir of Life

Elixir of Life
This small bottle of pearly liquid will bring a Hero back to life, restoring all of his Body and Mind Points. The card is then discarded.
Cost 1000 gold coins.

Note: Found in Q7 The Eastern Passage from NA Edition

Magical Throwing Knife
Always inflicts 1 Body Point of damage when thrown at a monster a Hero can "see". Monster cannot defend. Knife is lost once it is thrown and the card is then discarded.
Cost ? gold coins.

Quantity = 2
Note: Pair of these found in Q2 The Warrior Halls

Potion of Fire Resistance
Potion
You discover a red glass bottle in a shallow pit. If you drink the potion you will be able to roll three combat dice in defence against a fire attack. Discard after a fire attack has been resisted.
Cost 250 gold coins

Note: replaces Fire Ring from Q4 The Dwarvern Forge from NA Edition

Potion of Healing
You may drink the potion at any time. It will restore up to four lost Body points. The card is then discarded.
Cost 500 gold coins.

Note: Various quests contain this item, needs a card to represent it. In Kellar's Keep there are various places where two of these are contained in a single chest, so this is a second card in addition to the one included in GS.

Return of the Witch Lord Equipment Cards

Note: These cards are added to the Equipment Card Deck for this and future Quest Packs

Helmet of Ensorcelled Iron
+1 DD +1MP, not spell casters
This helmet allows you to roll one extra combat dice in defence against standard attacks and mind attacks. Cannot be worn by a spellcaster.

Potion of Luck
Potion
This small bottle of sparkling liquid can be taken immediately after any dice roll allowing you to change the dice to reflect the best possible outcome. Red dice to sixes, combat dice to all skulls or all shields and so on.
Cost 500 gold coins.

Note: Replaces Potion of Dexterity from NA Edition Alchemist's Shop as SE already has Potion of Speed.

Return of the Witch Lord Quest Treasure Cards

Dust of Disappearance
If tossed on any Hero, this dust allows that Hero to move past any monsters encountered on his next turn. The card is then discarded.
Cost ? gold coins.

Note: Q1: Gate of Doom

Dust of Sleep
A small pouch containing silver sand which blown into the eyes of an adjacent target, puts them to sleep, effects like the spell but no roll required. Discard after use.
Cost 350 gold coins

Note: This would replace the second "Dust of Disappearance" in Q1: Gate of Doom

Alchemists Fire Flask
Fire Attack, Throwing
This flask can be thrown at any character that you have a clear line of sight to. On impact it bursts into flames and the victim must roll three combat dice, losing a Body point for each skull rolled. Discard after use.
Cost 500 gold coins.

Note: Replaces Fire Spell Scrolls in Q4 Halls of Vision

Borin’s Armour
Artefact
This magical plate armour allows you to roll an extra combat dice in defence.
ARMOUR

Note: Swapped position with Rabbit Boots so this is now worn by Skullmar in Q7 The Forgotten Legion

Anti-poison Quill
Restores any of the owner's Body Points lost by poisoning if used immediately. The card is then discarded.
Cost ? gold coins.

Note: Q8 The Forbidden Caverns

Arm Band of Healing
Restores 2 lost Body Points once per Quest. If the wearer's Body Points are reduced to zero, use immediately to restore 2 Body Points.

Note: Q9 The Last Gate

Against the Ogre Horde Equipment Cards

Hail of Arrows
This enchanted arrow duplicates in flight causing a hail of arrows. Choose a target square as usual but all eight surrounding squares are also affected. Roll damage for each separately. Discard after use.
Cost ? gold coins.

Dawnstone
A fist sized jewel that glows faintly until it is held aloft and the command word is spoken at which point it emits a brief flash of extremely bright light temporarily blinding all monsters that can see the wielder. Blinded monsters miss their next turn. Discard after use.
Cost ? gold coins.

Totem of Undying
This charmed object can be used to absorb all damage from a single attack, and is destroyed in the process. Discard after use.
Cost 500 gold coins

Against the Ogre Horde Quest Treasure Cards

Unassigned Cards

Note: Still working through these to determine whether they should be placed as Quest Treasure Cards and if so where, or whether Equipment Cards and if so when?

Chakram of Xena
This throwing weapon allows you to roll two combat dice in attack and once thrown instantly returns to the hand of the holder

Cloak of Scales
This cloak allows the wearer to roll three combat dice in defence against fire attacks.

Arrow of Flame
This enchanted arrow bursts into flame on contact with the target. Roll for damage as usual but target does not get the opportunity to defend. Discard after use.
Cost ? gold coins.

Potion of Warmth
Potion
Drinking this potion when attacked by chill attacks allows you to roll x combat dice in defence
Cost 250 gold coins

Snake Oil
This potion heals all Body Points of damage caused by poison whatever the source. The card is then discarded.
Cost 500 gold coins.

To be clear I’m not suggesting that we include ‘expense’ items here, as this would take HQ down a route that I don’t like as it goes against the spirit (it is a fun board game not an accounting package) – spare arrows, torches and similar things that are needed for a Quest would for me count as 'expenses'