Reanimation: Redux

[Kurgan]

Reanimation is a chaos spell from the EQP that several have badmouthed as being useless... because the few times a Chaos Sorcerer gets it, he doesn't start in a room with undead monsters. I tended to agree with this sentiment, until I got to thinking more about how it might have been intended to work, and maybe just wasn't written very clearly.

Reanimation

This spell enables the spellcaster to reanimate all defeated skeletons, zombies, or mummies in the same room as the spellcaster. These monsters rise from the floor, with all lost Body Points restored, and attack the heroes again.

Why not just "Summon Undead"? I pictured the spell working like this:

The heroes slaughter a room full of undead monsters. The Chaos Sorcerer uses this spell and the undead monsters come back to life to attack again!

So when you are Zargon controlling Tormuk or Sinestra your goal should be to RUN from the room you start in to a far room, several turns of movement away, in which there were a bunch of undead you can revive.

But what if that's NOT how it's supposed to work?

Does it say that you revive the monsters in the room they died in? Taking it literally, it doesn't actually say all the undead, it uses the word "or" which made me think maybe there's another way to read it that makes it more useful for the bad guys...

...all defeated...

As in, ALL defeated. Not in the entire campaign, but in the entire QUEST.

...skeletons, zombies, or mummies...

So you pick one category of undead: Skeletons, zombies, or mummies.

How many of them were defeated so far in the quest? Zargon keeps track.

...reanimate... in the same room as the spellcaster...

Regardless of where these monsters were encountered or where they died (as long as they died), they all appear in the room with the spellcaster. So no running to a room that formerly held undead monsters or where they died. They come to YOU.

So let's take an example from one of the quests... assuming the heroes cleaned out all the undead within the entire quest... the spellcaster can choose... do you want 4 mummies... 5 zombies or 5 skeletons?

Yes, you will need the ROTWL expansion to have enough miniatures to pull this off (who cares, the Frozen Horror infamously used more doors than are included in any pack, Dark Company uses duplicates of furniture, etc. designers didn't always plan well enough). Like it or not, the creators of this and BQP pretty much assumed you'd have other expansions (for the Alchemist Shop) even if they couldn't make a quest dependent upon that. If you followed strictly only what was in the game system then you could only get a max of the figures that came in the box (4 skeletons, 2 zombies, or 2 mummies), which is pretty weak.

I like this solution. It's interesting, and doesn't require one to just replace a "useless" spell with Summon Undead, or have the sorcerer comically run to a room hoping to get to use the spell!

Thoughts?

[Kurgan]

Follow-up... in the "double quest" I count 13 skeletons (so you'd only get 12 of them, unless you replace one once one of the reanimated ones gets killed).
8 zombies (see above).
1 mummy (no problem).

Now if you don't count both quests, but only one, it works a little better.

Quest 9:
8 Skeletons
4 zombies
0 Mummies

Quest 10:
5 skeletons
3 zombies
1 Mummy

I'm thinking of doing things this way when I finally play through these quests in 2023...

[HispaZargon]

Well, this is another interpretation of Reanimation spell which could be used to fix, in an easy way, the useless of this spell. However, if you were right about this interpretation was the intention of the designers, it is quite rare that they did not explicitly limit the defeated monsters to the ones from the current quest, isn't it?

Anyway, it is a very good attempt, so maybe we could explore it more.

[Kurgan]

Yeah if not limited to the current quest then it would be always 4 skeletons OR 2 zombies OR 2 mummies...

but they may have forgotten they were not requiring people to own ROTWL as well (remember the Alchemist Shop issue... the draft notes say we can't expect or assume, then they turn right around and say if you do own it... classic "keep buying, kids!" behavior of product designers!)...

But 12 Skeletons OR 6 zombies OR 6 mummies would be quite a battle!

Then again, the heroes might NOT have cleared out all the undead in the quest (or the campaign so far... that is a lot to keep track of) and so might not have the same number to fight.

The "in this quest only or up until this point" question also came up with the Ice Gremlin stolen Treasure Rooms. The original intention with those was literally everything that had been stolen up to that moment throughout the entire campaign would be there (and not just stuff stolen in the same quest that automatically appears there and can be retrieved). The extra clarification text was removed I believe from the remake edition of BQP so it's vague and up to Zargon (he can easily write down what was stolen in the quests leading up to the next time the tile is put out). Keeping track of monsters killed is something I always do as Zargon (in some quests you have to, like the one where you collect bounties... and in the Japanese edition you do that every quest), but I don't usually look back several quests to see how many were killed total. Usually heroes complete a quest and kill every single monster or maybe they miss 1-2 (unless it's a TPK, but then we start over anyway with a remix of the quest).

I can imagine the questions for Twitter Zargon in a few months time... maybe they'll try to clarify it in a free PDF or maybe not? No one to date has asked about the Command spell even though that one could be a little vague ("attack" meaning only attack, or maybe attack spells, as opposed to other shenanigans with the hero, or if he's killed, does he lose his gear permanently, what about potions? does death cancel the spell?) or the exact mechanics of Elixir of Life... I guess when it's something like that, maybe they just prefer to let each player group use it how they think is best. But this one could raise some questions because I imagine many probably read it first like I did... thinking it just brings back any undead monsters killed in the room to life again. If THAT is how people are reading it, then Zargon will surely just modify the quest to throw a handful of undead monsters in the room WITH the dread sorcerer and be done with it.

IF we were using the "every undead defeated thus far in the campaign" it would be a little crazier:

up to quest 6:
skeletons: 9
zombies: 3 (q5 had 3 zombies as the wandering monster so could be more, a lot more)
mummies 3 (q1 had this as wandering monster so could be more)

quest 6:
skeletons: 5
zombies: 5
mummies: 4

after quest 7:

skeletons: 20
zombies: 14
mummies: 5

plus the undead actually in 9 & 10 that if defeated would be added to the total. So I'm thinking "all defeated thus far in the quest" is most reasonable (and own ROTWL). In theory you are still allowed to substitute a monster of the same color when it is called for but you don't have enough models (but similar in power as EQP also states). Speaking of that last substitution rule... technically EQP/BQP don't say "same color" (that's the Game System rule). So theoretically if it calls for a Mummy and you don't have enough, you could substitute a Fimir for instance. But then I take it you would treat that monster as the monster depicted, rather than having it be a stand in (ie: "You see a fimir but this is really to be treated as a mummy" ... actually it IS a fimir now). At least if you're still using the bone white figures, it fits the theme of the spell ("oh no, an undead fimir!!!").

[QorDaq]

Without going to far off the deep end, my assumption is that the original intent is expressed on the card. It's just that it's broken, or at least very edge case.

With that in mind, I like the idea of a fan "Fix" of some description.

Kurgan's suggestion (All defeated Undead in the current Quest), has merits. There's a little bit of overhead, but if the EWP sets defeated Undead aside into a "Reanimation Pile", no additional math or accounting is required. There is the potential limit of available models, but let's face it, anyone who sees this discussion likely has too many Undead anyway... Right? Right?! ...*Chuckle*...

Another idea that has occurred to me before, is to re-imagine the card as a variant of the Summon Undead, where the number and type of Undead is actually based on the number and type of Greenskins (or similar level enemies) previously defeated during the current fight.

Tier 1: Goblin = Skeleton
Tier 2: Orc = Zombie
Tier 3: Abomination/ Fimir = Mummy

The idea being simply resurrecting enemies already killed during the current battle. Technically I guess, from a thematic perspective, they should all be Zombies?

Anyway, just another take on how something like this "Could" be done if a project were started to replace the existing Spell.

Solid conversation either way.

[manaknight14]

and type of Greenskins (or similar level enemies) previously defeated during the current fight.

Tier 1: Goblin = Skeleton
Tier 2: Orc = Zombie
Tier 3: Abomination/ Fimir = Mummy

The idea being simply resurrecting enemies already killed during the current battle. Technically I guess, from a thematic perspective, they should all be Zombies?

Anyway, just another take on how something like this "Could" be done if a project were started to replace the existing Spell.

This is extremely close to the approach I have been thinking of taking with this spell. It works like the existing spell except that it reanimates all types of enemies in the room, not just those that were already undead. For converting greenskins and other living enemies to the proper "tier" of undead, a possible standard would be to use the highest tier for which the defeated monster met or exceeded the undead monster's stats (it prevents the monster from getting an "upgrade" by reanimating). That tiering would look like this:

Tier 0: Goblin = too weak to reanimate (only has 1DD, weaker than any undead)
Tier 1: Orc, Elven Archer = Skeleton
Tier 2: Abomination/Fimir, Elven Warrior, Giant Wolf = Zombie
Tier 3: Dread/Chaos Warrior, Gargoyle, Ogre = Mummy

For the two spellcasters in MotM with this spell, if all the monsters in their respective rooms were killed and then reanimated, Tormuk would get himself a zombie. Sinestra would net herself 2 skeletons, 2 zombies, and a mummy.

And for those particularly evil Zargons and Morcars, another possible twist to consider under this interpretation: what if you cast this spell after one of the heroes has been killed in the room?

[Kurgan]

Into the Northlands gave us a wolf mummy, so there's another idea too.

Good ideas guys, love it!

[Daedalus]

Kurgan, I like your interpretation! It works a lot better than running to another room for defeated undead.

Since Spell Cards are drawn anew for a Quest, I feel it's safe to assume that the defeated undead are also drawn from the same Quest. In the case of the double Quest, I'd use undead just from Quest 9, which could result in either 8 Skeletons or 4 Zombies. This not only avoids the difficulty of overloading the final room with undead, but it also simplifies things by steering clear of summoning undead from a separate realm of reflection. Personally, I'd have any available Skeletons rise and move from from the two bone piles like trap doors. If I only had 4 available from the Game System, new Skeletons would rise as killed Skeletons were removed until 8 had appeared. If the Heroes got cute and stepped on the bone piles, I'd have any new Skeletons appear from a nearby square until the spell was satisfied. The main thing is, the spell now works.

[Kurgan]

We used the bone pile spawning idea when we played the conclusion of EQP. I also added the "bone pile" (mystery tile) from ROTWL to further enhance it.

[Kurgan]

Another thing to add, the card saying "attack the heroes again" implies not just that they appear (as in "Summon Undead") to surround and protect the spellcastor, but may immediately attack the heroes!

This again sets it apart as a spell from the previous one, where the new bad guys just appear in the room, and don't get to do anything until Zargon's NEXT turn.

I would thus treat it as not only like an "Elixir of Life" for the bad guys, but as a "Wandering Monster" kind of situation. Yes, it is triggered on Zargon's turn, but these guys all get to attack heroes within the room (unless there aren't any heroes in the room I suppose, or just outside the doorway).

Though they weren't introduced until later, a modern Zargon could also use ranged Skeletons in this case in place of some or all of the Skeletons if he were to re-animate those.

I also like the idea that if you run out of models, more could just be added after spots are opened up by them being killed. Of course using the "run out of monsters" rule you're supposed to substitute a monster of similar strength (not just color as in the GS). Is "strength" attack stat only (or maybe attack and body points)? If so then you'd want to replace missing skeletons or zombies with each other (or with goblins), and mummies with Fimir/Abominations.