Ye Olde Inn

G'day all,

Grin's Map is a bit pointless considering how theoretically important it's meant to be to collect all four pieces. It does show a rough layout of the last quest in Kellar's Keep, but that's it.

What bonus effects (if any) have players come up with to make finding all the pieces more interesting and worthwhile?

One idea I had for the last quest of KK (using EU terminology):

"Before the characters move onto the board, the character players may use Grin's Map to find out what lies ahead. For each piece of the map they have collected, they may point to one room on the board. If it is marked on the quest map, the evil wizard player must lay out the contents of the room, with all doors closed. If the room they point to is shaded dark grey, the evil wizard player must tell them that nothing is there but solid rock. For example, if they have collected three pieces of Grin's Map, the players can ask about three different rooms. The players should take turns to ask about one room each, starting with the player to the left of the evil wizard player."

Effectively it's like a multi-use Clairvoyance spell effect from Wizards of Morcar. If they're smart they will inspect the actual map cardboard pieces to get a rough idea where rooms are likely to be, before asking. The more pieces they found, the more useful the map will be.

I counted the number of monsters on the map and it looks like they don't exceed the total number of miniatures you will have (base game plus Kellar's Keep), so even if you end up laying out rooms packed with creatures, it shouldn't be a problem in terms of components.

I never even noticed that the map shows the rough layout of the last quest *mind blown* I always thought the map pieces didn't really do anything so I really this idea to actually make them worth finding.

EDIT - Added this rule to my quest book, thanks for the idea!



Stoner81.

Stoner81 wrote:I never even noticed that the map shows the rough layout of the last quest *mind blown* I always thought the map pieces didn't really do anything so I really this idea to actually make them worth finding.

EDIT - Added this rule to my quest book, thanks for the idea!

If you get to try the rule, let me know if it works OK. It's not very realistic--why would an ancient stone map show the enemies in each room?--but it's the best I can come up with so far.

Hmm ... maybe it's an enchanted runic map like the Marauder's Map from Harry Potter, with moving dots on it?

Well yeah you have a point but the obvious suggestion to that is then to not place out the contents and only show the door/s that are for that room (not including secret doors).



Stoner81.

I think one way of making the map more important is to make it less of an objective and more of a Bonus. grin's Crag isn't that difficult of a quest unless you're being timed. So I'd suggest adding a timer to this quest, giving the heroes 20 - 25 turns each to make it through the final door. The Emperor is in dire need of escape, so the heroes need to get there before it's too late.

To make this easier, keep track of how many map tokens the heroes have. 4 stone map tokens and 4 sections of the board: at the start of the quest lay out the path the heroes must take to finish the quest (but not the monsters). If the heroes are missing a piece of the map DO NOT show that section of the board until the heroes see it. Otherwise they have a map and should know the quest layout.
There are certain doors the heroes shouldn't go through, but they'll certainly be tempted to look through them, which will only deter them from their main objective even further.

So I'd say add a timer and reveal the path if they have the map tokens, it'll take the edge off if they know where they have to go, but a timer will keep them making haste because you don't want to fail the whole quest at the last moment due to time constraints.

wallydubbs wrote:I think one way of making the map more important is to make it less of an objective and more of a Bonus. grin's Crag isn't that difficult of a quest unless you're being timed. So I'd suggest adding a timer to this quest, giving the heroes 20 - 25 turns each to make it through the final door. The Emperor is in dire need of escape, so the heroes need to get there before it's too late.

To make this easier, keep track of how many map tokens the heroes have. 4 stone map tokens and 4 sections of the board: at the start of the quest lay out the path the heroes must take to finish the quest (but not the monsters). If the heroes are missing a piece of the map DO NOT show that section of the board until the heroes see it. Otherwise they have a map and should know the quest layout.
There are certain doors the heroes shouldn't go through, but they'll certainly be tempted to look through them, which will only deter them from their main objective even further.

So I'd say add a timer and reveal the path if they have the map tokens, it'll take the edge off if they know where they have to go, but a timer will keep them making haste because you don't want to fail the whole quest at the last moment due to time constraints.

Great idea!

I came up with a simple timer mechanic for 'Race Against Time' in the base game that might also work for Grin's Crag:

(quest notes for the evil wizard player - EU terminology)
The players must hurry if they are to reach the Emperor and his army in time. At the start of your turn, take the top card from the Treasure pile and put it behind your screen without showing it to the character players. You cannot use this treasure card, but do not return it to the pile during the Quest. If you cannot take a treasure card because there are none left in the pile, Morcar's forces have overwhelmed and destroyed the Emperor's army - the Quest immediately ends in failure.

The EU treasure deck has about 25 cards in it from memory, so that's 25 turns (fewer if the players stop to dawdle and search).

If using a timer, it might not be necessary to lay anything out on the board at all. The map itself shows a rough layout of the quest, so the more pieces of the map the heroes have, the more quickly they'll figure out where to go.

Getting stuck in the Magical Darkness area will cause all manner of panic.


As for the map being an objective, I notice that the NA edition is more insistent about getting each piece of the map, implying that you can't finish each quest until you've found it. The EU edition is much more blase about the map. The flavour text at the front of the questbook says you must find all the pieces, but the actual parchment text for each quest just says "The third piece can be found here" and so on.

(I'm also amused that the NA edition's parchment text keeps reminding players to find the wooden exit door, every quest. The EU edition assumes that's so obvious it doesn't need saying. )


On a related note, I was thinking about ways to make the final confrontation with the Gargoyle of Grin's Crag more interesting. Someone suggested that it should have a Pass Through Rock spell (so it can go back into the wall and pop out elsewhere), which I like. But it would also be fun to have the craggy cliff tile cause some kind of gameplay effect. Maybe if a hero is standing on the crag tile and rolls three or more black shields when attacking, they slip and fall to their instant death? The chance of rolling three black shields is very low (same as rolling a triple 1 on regular dice), so it's unlikely to actually happen, but the potential danger might discourage players from risking the use of their stronger weapons, making the Gargoyle a tougher foe to defeat. Plus it more effectively recreates the drama of the cover art.

That's not a bad idea, using treasure cards as a timer. This emphasizes the point of searching for treasure would indeed take time, which can be costly.
Unfortunately for me I use an expanded treasure deck, so I wouldn't likely run out of cards. I generally play the quest by myself beforehand with base stats heroes to see how many turns it would take for them to complete the quest. By this point the heroes should have some equipment so going through the dungeon and fighting off the monsters shouldn't delay them too much.
So I give the heroes that many turns to go through the quest. They should be able to do it, as I WANT them to, I just want to make it difficult for them. Adding a timer adds a bit of tension and I think it would help Grin's Crag.

I kinda sorta added a timer to Legacy of the Orc Warlord too. At the start of the quest I have each Character roll the dice, whomever rolls the lowest is taken to the Torture Rack room. In exchange for this the Wizard and/or Elf start off with their spells. The 3 remaining heroes have 15 turns to escape the cell and rescue their compatriot before he starts taking damage. To escape the cell the heroes can either use Pass Through Rock, Genie or search the cell and find a rat bone that the Dwarf can pick the lock with.
This went very well the first time I tried it. The Elf rolled lowest and was taken to the torture rack room, Barbarian got out of the cell when wizard cas Pass Through Rock on him, while the Dwarf picked the lock. It took them 16 turns to get to the Torture Rack room. Instead of going around the top of the board the heros fought through the middle room. (I also had the monsters in the middle room gambling the heroes gold) So after the heroes fought them off the hero who searched collected all the Gold (Barbarian). This led to a brief argument over gold between the Barbarian and Wizard. The Wizard actually attempted to attack the Barbarian, who refused to give him is share of the gold back.
(The argument was between my two cousins, where the Wizard wanted to buy bracers after the quest, but Barbarian needed his share to get chainmail.
They eventually found the Elf and the Wizard let Barbarian keep the gold when he got the Wizard's Cloak off Grak.

Another use for the stone map could be to apply it to the East Gate Mind test, as possessing a fragment can help focus a Hero's mind onto the location beyond. For each fragment in a Hero's possession, he may reroll one red die for the test. Passing the test means passing the gate, so successful Heroes may not share their fragments.

LOL I made a post on this topic, but under HeroQuest Additions: Tiles right here. I listed it there as I was thinking outside the Quest Pack.