Borin's Armor clarification

[lestodante]

Good job with the card edit.
Regarding to the equipment rules, you can read to take the card of the weapon you've bought and take note of his benefit on your character's sheet.
It may also be intended that you remove the card and add the bonus, on the next quest all the cards are already there so other people may buy them.
I like the idea a shop can't have unlimited stuff and they may need some time to produce new weapons and replace the sold ones.

[Kurgan]

To me the "unlimited" nature of equipment isn't a big deal, except if you want to say, prevent all three heroes that can, from buying armor. For example if you say there's only two shields, then another hero has to do without, unless he can find one as a special treasure in some quest. Limiting swords and helmets means a Rust spell is more deadly (though rare, typically it can only be used once by a bad guy in a quest, for the few times there's a chaos warlock that can use it) because the Hero can't be guaranteed to replace it with his gold between quests.

If a hero player wants to spend a bunch of gold for a pile of daggers, so be it. That won't break the game (a crossbow is still more powerful). There's no base rule for dual wielding weapons so there's no benefit in buying multiples of other types of weapons (buying two shields to have an extra defend die but being unable to attack unless you drop one being the sole exception).

What usually happens is that as soon as Heroes can afford stuff, they will buy it until they have the best weapons and armor they can afford which they will keep until the end of the campaign, only needing to buy replacements if they lose an item due to rust or that one super nasty trap in I forget which quest.

So there seems little point in limiting gear beyond increasing difficulty, since there's no rule about armor/weapons "wearing out" by default. Players will only sell gear they don't plan to use anymore (does that mean it goes up for sale again if it was "sold out" according to this house rule?).

I don't see a whole lot of point, but each to their own of course.

As far as Borin's Armor, it's an Artifact... magical plate (a type of body armor that can't be destroyed with a Rust Spell unlike regular plate which is so vulnerable in WOM)... so I would allow it to be combined with a helmet, and you can't wear it over the top of any other type of body armor. By itself it just adds 2 extra combat dice to your base defense roll without impeding movement in any way. Borin's Armor is only ever found once by default so I don't see it being something that needs further nerfing (even the Elven Chainmail is technically different... as it's magical chainmail, not magical plate, see "pits of darkness" rules for ATOH and probably WOM... whether you limit it to the Elf or not, if memory serves it is only ever offered to the Elf in a solo quest, but he could give it to another hero to use other than the Wizard).

[HispaZargon]

I like what you've done with the card--looks great!

Agreed, Kudos to HispaZargon!

Good job with the card edit.

Thank you so much. I hope it could also be useful for others. I have also uploaded the picture in the appropriate Inn's gallery here.

Regarding to the equipment rules, you can read to take the card of the weapon you've bought and take note of his benefit on your character's sheet.
It may also be intended that you remove the card and add the bonus, on the next quest all the cards are already there so other people may buy them.
I like the idea a shop can't have unlimited stuff and they may need some time to produce new weapons and replace the sold ones.

Well, of course it is something that can be played as comfortable as the group of players want. In my case, I prefer to add some difficult to the players related with equipment availability. About the rules, I have quite clear that the game designers original idea was to limit the available equipment quantity. It is explained in that way in the rules (post) and there are also other details that suggest the same. For example, if you check the text of High Mage spell 'Rust' from WoM quest pack, there it is assumed again that players own the cards of their equipment during the game so, the quantity of cards could be the desired way to limit it.

[Kurgan]

The Japanese version definitely limits equipment. Presumably though if a piece of equipment is "lost" (for any reason) then the card would return to the (virtual) "Armory" and then be available for purchase again. Otherwise it would be even more restrictive, if each carded item could only be purchased 1 time!

[HispaZargon]

The Japanese version definitely limits equipment. Presumably though if a piece of equipment is "lost" (for any reason) then the card would return to the (virtual) "Armory" and then be purchasable again. Otherwise it would be even more restrictive, if each carded item could only be purchased 1 time!

Yeah, Japanese edition is also written in the same way, good catch!

[Kurgan]

So let's say I buy all the Potions of Healing, then use them up in a quest... then before the next quest begins, I can buy them again, because the cards have been returned to the "Armory." It's an easier version of the game (except that one quest) but still, that seems fair.

Of course I'm sure they had photocopiers back in 1991 in Japan, hence players could always skirt the rule by running off dupes of the existing cards until they had as many as they wanted.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

I think that part of the confusion is because the text on the cards/armoury in different versions isn't 100% clear (which has been covered to death here), but another part is because the first interpretation that most people get on reading the text is followed by them thinking "that can't be right that is too over powered at that stage of game" or "if weapons and armour are the method of advancement in this game then why give away the most potent and expensive armour in the game for free this early on" so they assume they have misunderstood.

The second part is why we replace Borin's Armour with Borin's Amulet (Borin was a busy chap) that gives the wearer an extra 'starting' BP for as long as it is worn.

[wallydubbs]

I think that part of the confusion is because the text on the cards/armoury in different versions isn't 100% clear (which has been covered to death here), but another part is because the first interpretation that most people get on reading the text is followed by them thinking "that can't be right that is too over powered at that stage of game" or "if weapons and armour are the method of advancement in this game then why give away the most potent and expensive armour in the game for free this early on" so they assume they have misunderstood.

The second part is why we replace Borin's Armour with Borin's Amulet (Borin was a busy chap) that gives the wearer an extra 'starting' BP for as long as it is worn.

I think Borin's Armor was put in Quest 7 merely by default. Each artifact is found thematically in a corresponding quest: all the Wizard items (Staff, Cloak, Wand, Ring) are found in a quest where the big boss is a spell caster (Grak, Balour, Witch Lord); Ring of Return is found in the Castle of Mystery (the only quest with teleportation); Talisman of Lore, Elixer of Life and Spirit Blade are all found in quests they are objectively designed for (quest goals).
This leaves Borin's Armor and Orc's Bane, which are just character enhancing byproducts.
I think Borin's Armor would be more suitable to be found in Bastion of Chaos, but there are two underlying reasons I think it was designated to Lost Wizard:
1.) There are no Orcs in the Lost Wizard quest. For the sake of thematics, as I already pointed out, I believe the game designers found it more fitting that Orc's Bane be found in a quest with Orc enemies.
2.) Borin's Armor is found in a quest early enough where the 3 Armor wearing heroes wouldn't likely have enough gold to buy chainmail. This is before there were any rules about selling equipment back to the armory. It's overpowered, yes, but it's possible ths game designers put it early on so the heroes hadn't already bought chain or plate mail, thus wasting all that limited gold.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

thus wasting all that limited gold.

But that is my point, it is limited but not limited enough, so giving the Heroes an artefact that gives them a bonus is fine but saving them 850gc in the process just means that they max out on equipment even earlier, making the problem worse not better!

[Kurgan]

There will be plenty of opportunities to suck away their gold later on. I look at it this way... I didn't plan to nerf BQP*, EQP, WOM and Dark Company. I plan to keep my heroes going to that point and hopefully they will have enough gear and options to have a fair shot at those decidedly unfair (as written) quests.

So it's a matter of perspective. If you want to take away bonuses, add limitations and make the game harder now, great. But later on you'll be making changes to make the game easier, more merciful and so forth later on. That is, if you are planning to play through them all and not just the game system. The game WILL get harder, and they will spend their gold on potions and mercenaries. They'll die an lose their stuff, etc. Even the Japanese version, which provides many times the gold expected in the EU or NA editions (EU edition provides more gold than the NA edition usually), gives you opportunities to gamble away your gold in exchange for the a chance for more body points (and you lose your gold if you die).

A lot of my players hate Plate anyway, because of the slower movement, so wouldn't have bought it if you offered it to them.


* the one concession I made was for the Yeti hug attack in the Barbarian solo quests, allowing a chance to break the hold, otherwise it's game over most times you encounter this monster alone. You encounter a fellow before you start your journey who teaches you an old "wrestling trick" which might come in handy some day...