Is "see" the same thing as "line of sight?"

[Zenithfleet]

The EU rules (2nd edition English) are an interesting case.

They don't use the term 'line of sight', but rather 'visibility'.

They specify two different kinds of visibility:

a) for purposes of placing models, doors, furniture etc on the board

b) for purposes of casting spells and using missile weapons (e.g. crossbows).

p9, 'What can be seen?' (in the larger section 'Moving around the board') says:

"Deciding what can be seen by a player character is very important in determining what should be placed on the board. Miniatures in the same room are always visible. Miniatures in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the two miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door then the miniature is not visible."

Therefore, for putting things onto the board, in the EU rules, miniatures don't block what's visible--only walls and doors do. So if there are two Goblins in a corridor, one behind the other, both would be placed.


However, on p11, 'Casting a Spell', it says:

"Spells can be cast at monsters or character provided they are visible to the spellcaster. Miniatures in the same room are always visible. Miniatures in passages or in different rooms are only visible if you can trace an unobstructed straight line between the miniatures. If the line passes through a wall or a closed door or another miniature then the miniature is not visible." [Emphasis in the original.]

Note the addition in the last sentence, which is emphasised with bold and italics... but which could easily be missed if you referred to only one page or the other during a game instead of both.

So, in the EU 2nd edition, models do block visibility for spellcasting if they're in another room, or in a passage/corridor.

And on p15 it says under 'Missile fire' that "Your opponent must be visible, as with casting a spell."

Therefore missile weapons (throwing, crossbows) use the same models-can-block-models rule as spellcasting.


As for searching, the EU 2nd ed rules say on page 11 that: "Characters may not search if they are adjacent to a monster or if there is a monster in the same room or passage."

It's not tied to visibility.

The 'adjacent to a monster' clause is presumably for cases where you're standing at a door and there's a monster on the other side.

----

In the 1st edition EU, visibility appears to have been less well defined. There doesn't seem to be a section explaining what's visible as players move around the board--only for casting spells. It also mentions that you can't search in a passage if a monster is visible, rather than just in the passage.

The 2nd ed rules seem much more clear when it comes to what's visible. They distinguish three different cases: putting things on the board, searching, and 'targeting' models with spells/missile weapons.

[Kurgan]

Until I read them recently, I didn't know the difference.

EU: "Visible" means in the same room or corridor ("passage") with you. So yes, you can throw a spell at a monster or hero who isn't line of sight to you.
NA: "Visible" means "see" which means unbroken line of sight from you to the target. Another figure, piece of furniture (other than an open door) or wall obstructs it.

A literal reading of the NA rules indicates that if there is a Monster in the room/corridor with you (unless that monster is asleep, I guess), you can't search for Treasure or Traps. BUT, if you can't "see" the Monster (even if its figure is in the same room), that is you can't trace an unbroken line from you to the enemy, you CAN search for Secret Doors.

[Oftkilted]

More examples of why wrote what i did in the other thread

I'm not interested in house rules,

The problem there is you'll come to realise that there are huge differences between the version and even how you interpret the words with in those versions..

It's pretty much impossible to play perfect as intended, there's too many places people can choose to interpret what "intended" is. The only way is to house rule it, to have it solidified for your group. Knowing where all those interpretations can jump up makes for a better group runner, you're prepared for the silly disagreements.

Originally. Heroes cannot search in the presence of monsters, same room or corridor. There is no line of sight for this, the American version didn't need to add that to the search part, as an extra stipulation for clarification, it only further confused people.

Edit. But I'm OK playing either way.

Searching in the EU version is described as “When a player searches he searches the whole room or passage in which they are standing.” My take would be that if there are monsters in the passage/room they’d run into them on their search. And would be attacked. Which is one of the reasons why they classify everything in a room being visible. And not being able to search when monsters are in the same room.

Hero: “Don’t mind me aggressive monster ... I’m just looking ... I’ll be out of here in a minute ...” (Monster pulls out a club and whacks the hero upside the head after looking confused for a moment.)

Searching in the NA version calls out in the searching for treasure portion as “Searching for treasure means you are looking around, opening things, searching for interesting objects and Gold Coins, regardless of what square you are on in the room. Do not move your Hero figure when you search.”

Searching for traps and secret doors isn’t called out in the same language, but they are discribed as being more involved than “looking” and that you also don’t move your hero figure. And it’s described as looking for things that are “hidden” which would imply that this is a “in depth investigation” even though it isn’t stated.

[Kurgan]

I think each Instruction Manual (NA or EU) explains clearly what "visible" and "see" mean. The only question comes in when we start modding and adapting things, mixing and matching rules.

NA favors "line of sight." EU favors "piece on the board in the room/passage." Exceptions to this are noted in the books. When an official card doesn't specify, I default to what the Instructions rule book says. If one doesn't like those rules, one can do what they like with their house rules setup, I figure.

I play NA, treat Spells and ranged weapons as LOS ("see") and searches I treat as same room/corridor. I never paid attention to the "can't see a monster" Secret Door search loophole. But from here on, I will, if it comes up.

I also started playing it like... you open a door, and it doesn't reveal everything, only what you can see (Line of Sight) through the doorway, until you set foot inside, THEN everything gets revealed (except hidden secret doors/treasure/traps of course... unless there's a trap on the square you just stepped on of course!). And yes, yes, I know if you use "Pass Through Rock" into a previously unrevealed room, that's essentially the same as walking into it via a door.

[Oftkilted]

I’m all for surprise attacks on heroes that are searching. As they’re using their action to search. And pinning isn’t a thing in HeroQuest.

[Kurgan]

I’m all for surprise attacks on heroes that are searching. As they’re using their action to search. And pinning isn’t a thing in HeroQuest.

What do you mean by pinning?

[Oftkilted]

I’m all for surprise attacks on heroes that are searching. As they’re using their action to search. And pinning isn’t a thing in HeroQuest.

What do you mean by pinning?

A hero or monster can’t move / escape from combat if it is being attacked in melee combat. “IE it is ‘stuck in combat’”

Warhammer Quest did it by forcing a roll on an “agility” or pinning roll. If you failed the check you can’t move out of combat. Some things can’t be done in WHQ if stuck in combat, such as shooting a ranged weapon.

[Kurgan]

Interesting phraseology (never played Warhammer Quest or Warhammer fantasy for that matter). So "escape" or "flee" from battle is "pinning" in those games? Yeah, doesn't really come up in this game. You roll and either you take damage or you don't. A good roll means you either blocked or "dodged" the intended attack. If they play a card that does damage and you happen to have a card that negates that effect, same deal. The (Chaos) "Escape" spell works entirely differently. It's an action on their turn, as opposed to something that they do in response to an attack that would otherwise kill them. But of course you could always create a special rule just or that particular quest or something I suppose.

In HeroQuest most of the time you get attacked, and it isn't your turn, but you get a chance to defend. But after you have defended, that's it for you unless you get attacked by somebody else. You could, on Zargon's turn, theoretically get attacked on multiple sides by multiple monsters, but you get to defend each time. Then if it's your turn next, you get to do your action and/or movement like normal. You don't just sit there and fight to the death.

As far as searching every square in a room, I wouldn't really take that too seriously, because a secret door will not be blocked by a Monster standing directly on top of it. And we already know that even having three other Heroes in a room or passage doesn't impede your searches. Plus, you can't search for Traps/Treasure with the Monster in the room/corridor ("passage") anyway. The idea of the NA version allowing you to search for secret doors just because you are standing to one side of a monster just out of "line of sight" range (or another Hero is standing between the two of you) seems like a mistake, but technically its allowed. Maybe your buddy distracts the monster while you check the room? Who knows. It's a game mechanic different in one set of rules from the other. I think it would be reasonable to treat Secret Door Searches the same as Treasure/Traps searches in the same version of the rules.

[Zenithfleet]

Until I read them recently, I didn't know the difference.

EU: "Visible" means in the same room or corridor ("passage") with you. So yes, you can throw a spell at a monster or hero who isn't line of sight to you.
NA: "Visible" means "see" which means unbroken line of sight from you to the target. Another figure, piece of furniture (other than an open door) or wall obstructs it.

I beg to differ, sir! *dons rules lawyer specs*

As noted in my previous post, in the EU rules (2nd edition English), there are two different meanings of 'visible'.

a) For placing things on the board when a hero moves into a new area, only walls and doors prevent things from being visible.

b) For targeting other models, like casting spells or firing crossbows, walls, doors and miniatures in the way prevent things from being visible.

In both cases, however, all models in the same room are always visible, even for spells and missile weapons. Models obscure LOS only through doors and in passages.


If you want to throw a spell at an Orc in the same room, that's always fine even if the Barbarian is in the way. (And he can always shoot back at you if he happens to have a missile weapon.)

But if you want to throw that spell at an Orc down the corridor, and the Barbarian is in the way, you can't do it.

If you want to throw the spell through a door / secret door into another room, and the Barbarian is in the way, you can't do that either.

(This does bring up the interesting question of what happens in a room where the furniture is placed in an unusual way. For instance, in the White Dwarf adventure 'The Halls of Durrag-Dol' there's a cupboard jutting out into the middle of a room. By the EU rules that wouldn't block line of sight, but it would be a bit silly and would probably need a quick houserule. That almost never happens in official Quests, though.)


Searching, meanwhile, has nothing to do with visibility / LOS at all. The limitation is simply that you can't have a monster in the same room or passage as you. Or be next to you. Because that would be a bit disconcerting.


The trick with these 2nd ed EU rules is that they're in three separate places spread throughout the rulebook. It's an easy mistake to look up only one section and think you've read all the 'visibility' rules (why wouldn't they all be in the same place?)


The 1st ed EU rules were much less clear. They only talked about 'what is visible' when explaining spellcasting.

The diagram from the 1st ed EU showing lines of sight was in the 'spellcasting' section. Amusingly, even though the visibility rules are much more clearly explained in the 2nd ed rules, that diagram is misplaced and no longer appears near the relevant text.

[Kurgan]

Until I read them recently, I didn't know the difference.

EU: "Visible" means in the same room or corridor ("passage") with you. So yes, you can throw a spell at a monster or hero who isn't line of sight to you.
NA: "Visible" means "see" which means unbroken line of sight from you to the target. Another figure, piece of furniture (other than an open door) or wall obstructs it.

I beg to differ, sir! *dons rules lawyer specs*

As noted in my previous post, in the EU rules (2nd edition English), there are two different meanings of 'visible'.

a) For placing things on the board when a hero moves into a new area, only walls and doors prevent things from being visible.

b) For targeting other models, like casting spells or firing crossbows, walls, doors and miniatures in the way prevent things from being visible.

In both cases, however, all models in the same room are always visible, even for spells and missile weapons. Models obscure LOS only through doors and in passages.


If you want to throw a spell at an Orc in the same room, that's always fine even if the Barbarian is in the way. (And he can always shoot back at you if he happens to have a missile weapon.)

But if you want to throw that spell at an Orc down the corridor, and the Barbarian is in the way, you can't do it.

If you want to throw the spell through a door / secret door into another room, and the Barbarian is in the way, you can't do that either.

When moving from one room into a corridor ("Passage") or another room, in the EU version? Sure. I neglected to say that down a (single square wide) corridor one figure can block your path for shooting/casting. But in the NA version, you have to be lined up with a clear shot at an Orc for your missile/spell, period (not true for Zargon's Firestorm, since it attacks the whole room or Cloud of Chaos that hits a whole room or corridor). In the EU version, it can seek around other obstacles to hit the target. That to me is the big difference! (most dramatically with the Genie, if I recall correctly)

(This does bring up the interesting question of what happens in a room where the furniture is placed in an unusual way. For instance, in the White Dwarf adventure 'The Halls of Durrag-Dol' there's a cupboard jutting out into the middle of a room. By the EU rules that wouldn't block line of sight, but it would be a bit silly and would probably need a quick houserule. That almost never happens in official Quests, though.)

Not that silly. In the EU logic, magic finds its mark, regardless of what is in the way.... it's magic not a bullet! I guess it seems a little odd with say, crossbow bolts or thrown daggers, so you imagine you either shot right through (cracks in?) the furniture, or you shot/tossed up in the air and it came down on their heads.

I always wanted to shoot arrows over tables, but you could say they ducked behind it and you missed! I'm not arguing for a uniform "one-size-fits-all" ruleset across territories. I play what I know, which is the NA version, but for fun I throw in a few house rules inspired by some of the other versions or whatever. When somebody else is Zargon, they can do otherwise.

Searching, meanwhile, has nothing to do with visibility / LOS at all. The limitation is simply that you can't have a monster in the same room or passage as you. Or be next to you. Because that would be a bit disconcerting.

I don't dispute it. I don't say you're searching one end of the corridor but not the other (or search the side that doesn't have monsters in it!). Some players once argued with me over a corridor that was "broken up" by the presence of an open pit of darkness (it was Against the Ogre Horde, which wasn't designed for the NA rules). They thought they should only be able to search one section of the corridor and then search the other half separately (plus another search down the pit itself, potentially).

The trick with these 2nd ed EU rules is that they're in three separate places spread throughout the rulebook. It's an easy mistake to look up only one section and think you've read all the 'visibility' rules (why wouldn't they all be in the same place?)

I saw that in the other thread. The difference comes in with targeting enemies in combat or allies to cast spells on. The "get out of LOS of monsters and search for secret doors in a room" just seems to be an anomaly in the NA rules.

If there's an enemy in the middle of the room down a pit, would you be able to hit them from anywhere in the room with a spell or crossbow?