TIA: Damaged Weapons

[drathe]

Not sure if it's realistically possible to roll 5 black shields- isnt' that a 1 in 6x6x6x6x6 odds?

Oh, it's happened...

I choose 3 black shields because that's the value of any one piece, 1 defend die, plus a Hero's 2 defend dice. Plate mail would require 4 or more black shields to damage, but no randomization would be necessary in such a rare event.

That does sound better to me as well. Still a rare chance, but ups the odds. For the Plate Mail however, I would just attribute the damage as taking away some of its protection value. (-1 Combat Die) For randomising, if you use equipment cards, you can just have the Hero hold up all their armour cards facing away from the GM and have them randomly pick one. Or better yet, have the GM hold them up facing away from the Hero and have them randomly pick one.

[Daedalus]

My feeling is you have a great idea, but I wouldn't expand it into a table. Of course, do what you want in your rules. I may use it in my game without the table, and this (edited) wording:

If a combat roll with a weapon results in only black shields or 3 black shields in any event, then it is damaged. Record "damaged 1x" with the weapon on your Hero's character sheet. The combat die value of the weapon is now permanently reduced by 1 until it is repaired between Quests. Repair cost is half the gold coin value of the weapon to remove a -1 penalty. Each time the weapon is repaired or again damaged, record a new damage increment after the old (as little as 0x for a fully-repaired weapon to as much as 3x for a nearly-useless Battle Axe). Combat dice penalties are cumulative if not repaired. Should the total instances of the repaired and non-repaired damage equal the original combat die value of the weapon (or 2 for Bows), then instead erase the weapon from your Hero's character sheet, as it is rendered forever useless and unrepairable. Weapon artifacts may not be damaged in this way.

If a Hero is protected by armor and a combat defend roll results in 3 or more black shields, then a piece of armor is damaged. Record "damaged 1x" with a randomized armor piece (excluding Plate Mail) on your Hero's character sheet. Should Plate Mail be worn and 4 or more black shields are rolled, then instead record "damaged 1x" with the Plate Mail. The combat die value of the armor is now permanently reduced by 1 until it is repaired between Quests. Repair cost is half the gold coin value of the armor to remove a -1 penalty. Each time the piece of armor is repaired or again damaged, record the new damage increment after the old (as little as 0x to as much as 3x). Defend dice penalties are cumulative if not repaired. Should the total instances of the repaired and non-repaired damage either equal 2 for smaller armor or 4 for mail armor, then instead erase the piece of armor from your Hero's character sheet, as it is rendered forever useless and unrepairable. Armor artifacts may not be damaged in this way and aren't included in randomizing to determine which piece of armor is damaged.

It plays a little differently, as I incorporated my suggestion in the post above to force armor damage at a higher chance for well-armored Heroes. The same higher chance was also expanded to include high-damage weapons. If this isn't done, then these items are virtually insured not to break, thus inflating their value over their cost as compared to lesser armor and weapons. This handicap is a lesser of two evils, in my opinion. (The 2-Handed Sword may be priced right for 4 black shields, however. I didn't include it as an exception as with Plate Mail because I'm unsure of its value in the canon rules, and I probably won't use it. The Bow was a simpler issue for me.)

I simplified the repair cost to half, as it averages out the same for the life of a weapon or piece of armor, and this reflects the used-market cost of selling a weapon found in the BQP and EQP expansions. Also, some of the weapons take damage a little differently for the sake of simplification. For example, I rationalize a relatively fragile crossbow as capable of sustaining more damage by reasoning that it's parts are individually replaceable and repairable, thus it may be fixed more often. But I agree a bow is only somewhat repairable, so I included it as an exception.

[el_flesh]

chain mail is easily repaired with new links in it, so it should never be "destroyed". Plate mail parts can be replaced, too. Helmets were probably one piece, though. I don't know how shields were made aside from understanding them to be layered.

[Phoenix]

Just for clarity...

I made a half-assed suggestion of "what-if" in regards to rolling all Black Shields in defense/attack and my regular players thought this was BRILLIANT!!, so I had to come up with 'something' to substantiate the idea. This has never been play-tested and I have yet to like it anywhere close to 100%, so I will happily peruse any/all feedback on this topic. As it stands, my regular group may never get together again, so this optional rule may never get played.

This has only temporarily been added to The Imperial Academy (and since it is not complete) is subject to change.

[Daedalus]

Sorry to hear about your group disbanding (the sun sets). My game group doesn't want to play HeroQuest (yet), so I'm stuck making-do on the boards.
Your half-assed suggestion and 'something' to substantiate is such a cool , portable idea I can't resist tinkering with it for my own ends. Excuse me if I came off preaching to the choir, but I get a kick grinding up and recreating a chunky rule. I use the boards as my workspace. I imagine it's also an ego-thing that I hope what I post becomes useful for others, whether or not you incorporate parts in your own rule. Let us know if you finalize this rule, I'd like to see how it turns out. Lastly, I had to edit my previous post, in case you'd like to check it again.

[WittyDroog]

I've talked about this idea with my players and we all seem to agree, as other members have said, that rolling a high number of black skulls is highly improbable. I get the direction that people were going for, trying to emulate the "critical failure" feeling from other RPGs. Here's a suggestion that my team has agreed fits the feeling we want:

First off keep the damage and price to repair table, we liked it, nothing wrong there.

When it comes to weapons, if an attack is completely defended, the attacking player must roll a combat die. On a black shield the weapon is damaged one level. Our reasoning and logic thematically is that if the monster successfully defends it either means he used his armor, shield, or another weapon to deflect the attack or the weapon missed and swung at air. Both cases could have resulted in the weapon being damaged wither on the monster's armor or on the dungeon itself (hitting the ground). Obviously this has a bias towards damaging weapons with few combat dice, but by virtue they are also weapons that are fairly cheap to replace, whereas a mighty battleaxe is expensive to replace but has more durability. It's like a weird prebuilt "craftsmanship" system as a side-effect of this.

When it comes to armor, any time a monster's attack is completely unblocked (as in, no white shields were rolled), roll a combat die. On a black shield a piece of armor has become damaged one level. The order in which armor is damaged is the following: 1. Shield, if any. 2. Helmet, if any. 3. Other non-Body Armor items, if any. 4. Body Armor. Once a piece of armor is damaged beyond repair you move onto the next piece in line. Here the logic is that if the attack is as catastrophic to go through all defenses it could be described as your protection failing so badly you are caught off guard, such as a shield bursting into splinters. The order of armor was discussed with the group as being what would most logically be struck, like if you had a shield and a helmet you would likely raise your shield before defending with your head!

Items such as tool kits can also break. Whenever an attempt to use the kit fails by rolling a black shield, such as when disarming a trap or picking a lock, roll another combat die. On a black shield the item has snapped and cannot be used further Because how many lockpicks do you go through picking locks in video games? But seriously, you can damage your tools, that's the harsh nature of the dungeon.

You may find that "harsh nature" describes these rules, they are certainly a lot rougher than the previously pitched ideas. It might be the tone that my players like but it's how we see fit. We like games were trouble can come from anywhere and nothing is a certainty. This will foster behavior to be more careful with gold, searching every nook and cranny for a coin, and think carefully before attacking a Chaos Warrior with a dinky blade (as if they needed that much push anyway). For Zargon it means a good excuse to introduce more homebrewed rules, such as looting monsters, traveling merchants (haggling, trading, barter, etc.), and lots of new treasure cards. It also means more reason to put simple items like a helmet or short sword on armor racks, making them more useful. Also as part of payment from a Lord to do a mission he might exchange some wares from his imperial armory as opposed to just coin.

It's tough rules, but we like tough games.

[Patroclus]

Yeah, I think Daedalus is right. 3 black shields could do the job… 4 or more are like impossible to roll. And if you have a dagger and you roll 1 black shield, you should roll 2 more dices to see if it is damaged or not.

I like the idea in a session where all the heroes have bought all the available items and are rich enough. It is a very good option for GM to rebalance his game.

[cynthialee]

As much as I REALLY like the idea.....
I have novice players that get discouraged easily. I could see them getting into the first few rooms and breaking a tool kit and a weapon or two and just getting down trodden and defeted before they even start.

[WittyDroog]

Yes and that's completely fair, our group tends to play viciously difficult board games and RPGs like Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, Space Hulk, etc. We tend to like games in which players come out barely alive, where their victory was a die roll or two away from slipping away.

This idea, my version that is, was built with the intent of using character progression found in David Allison's expanded rules in conjunction. It would serve as one of the various ways to allow players to increase, but not so rapidly that you had to rely on altering monster stats in order to balance things.

I guess the best way think of this version is to think of the game like Heavy Metal 2000 or Fire & Ice. Lots of grizzley things happening.

[WittyDroog]

So after playtesting, we have discovered the method I described isn't that brutal, in fact in an entire quest only one weapon and one shield broke. Here's how it breaks down:

Fights between more powerful monsters, specifically Chaos Warriors and Gargoyles, become more intense as they have a high chance of completely negating your attacks and forcing you to roll for your weapon getting damaged, we agreed though that this seems appropriate from a thematic standpoint.

Short swords and weapons that only grant +0 dice like daggers and staves, are more prone to becoming useless, making players equipped with this more cautious about fighting tougher opponents, while I also use an unarmed combat roll (roll 1 combat die, hits only on white shield), players were still worried about being severely handicapped. Solution was to ensure in dungeon creation to provide more chances to find these weaker weapons (even include them in a treasure deck). We were using a premade mission so such chances didn't exist.

We were also fiddling with looting monsters but that ran into a problem. If they could loot monsters, despite any penalties applied to their weapon we felt it was far too easy and took the teeth out of the damaged weapon rule. But without them this rule seemed too much as heroes are potentially screwed the whole quest.

What I WASN'T testing was new items I had made, and I had forgotten that I had made whetstones and armor patch kits. Each worked the same, discard the whetstone or patch kit and roll a combat die, if you roll any shield you successfully repair the item. Giving the team a few of these really helped out while keeping the fear of the rule alive.