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Gameboards of Zombicide and Conan

PostPosted: Monday April 24th, 2017 4:40pm
by Anderas
I just don't like Conan and Zombicide. In Zombicide, the feeling of playing against each other is missing. Winning against a pile of cards is just... not satisfying. And Conan, well... it is a very very good skirmish game. It is not, well, it is not... I don't know, story driven?

However, I love the game materials! The boards are just great, just as the miniatures are.

The Boards.
They use a different system. A Zombicide game has either 6 or 9 fields side to side, with as many models as you like per field.

Same for Conan. A board measures 6 or 7 fields along a side. Small boards 5 fields big boards rather 7.

Heroquest measures 26 one length and 19 the other one. That makes 5 turns in bad case, three turns in the good case from one corner to another, assuming 4 or 10 fields movement distance.

If you translate that into zombicide or conan fields, you will go one or two fields per turn.
Attacks will be made against any model in your field. If you have ranged as longer variant of diagonal, it works against the neighbor field. If not, diagonal is the one that works against the neighbor fields.
Line of sight is difficult for Zombicide. In Conan there are points in the fields for the line of sight: you just check it from point to point.


Shooting and fighting are easy.
Movement... don't know. If you set it to two fields per turn it feels right, but it looks quite fast compared to Heroquest.

That would be a method to use at least the boards of Conan and Zombicide. They are really great! Never seen so well designed game material before.

Secret doors are easy, too.

What about the traps?

Re: Gameboards of Zombicide and Conan

PostPosted: Monday April 24th, 2017 5:06pm
by mitchiemasha
Zombieside is an amazing game. Many used to other games often misunderstand its mechanics though.

In zombicide, it's simply a rough representation of where you are, it's up to players to add an extra element of role play to the specifics of what is happening in that zone (or you can play it purely mechanical). We all had a last stand in a bath tub once. The coop element is top notch, pulling the team together is how you become the winner, rising to the occasion, it being your plan that wins and works.

The GM in HeroQuest could equally be a pile of cards. We've had more in game fights in Zombicide than HeroQuest, black plague edition.

As for LoS... It's same again, the map is simply a rough representation. This is why you might be able to draw a straight line between a few rooms but this is not the case.

Here is my summary and house rules. ... HVlMjIxMnM. I need to add my wound cards mod, it replaces the awful zombivours and brings about some epic movie like moments.

The car improvements usually need some explaining as it's heavily abbreviated. The sheet is more for reference once people have been shown it.

Re: Gameboards of Zombicide and Conan

PostPosted: Tuesday May 16th, 2017 9:04am
by Anderas
EWP in Heroquest means more to me than a pile of cards!

I am a Game Mechanic. If games had a combustion engine, i would always be covered in oil up to my shoulders. Hacking games is actually more fun for me than playing them. If game companies would pay decently, i would never work in aerospace and also not in data science, both not. (whereas, the latter you can beautifully apply to games :D )

I made an Final Liberation/Epic40k hack that is actually balanced even if the AI is stupid as bread. I invented a entirely new trading system for "The Settlers" because the current system was annoying me. I really intensively played Space Crusade, but nevertheless, the time invested in "correcting" the game was longer than the total playtime of my entire youth. I hacked 40k in the 6th and 7th edition so that it was actually fun to play 40k despite the special rule flood, and our club took over my ideas. The Kill Team rules of 40k, 4th edition, i made them available to Space Crusade because they are actually a lot of fun, sneaking around the board, trying not to be catched by the evildoer.

What is special about Heroquest for me is the EWP mechanic: You actually are asked by the rules to think of missions yourself. For me, a "Heroquest quest" is:

- Best case, at least one Game mechanic in the quest notes that you have never seen before
- a Mission difficulty/balancing that shall be achievable but challenging (Questimator 14 or 15 was proving itself)
- maybe one new monster (painted! :D )
- a Warhammer map position of the quest that you can use in a greater, narrative context
- A small short story cut down to 5-10 sentences that gives the narrative players a bit of feeling, enhanced by matching quest notes

So for me the game begins before the game. I make a mission, i make the rules, i make a story. Afterwards it is quite rewarding for me to watch the players how well or not well they do with the mission that i invented, seeing where they have fun and where it was not-so-good so that i can be better next time.
Once you have prepared all that, you can compile it into a set of Cards with some Monster AI rules, true. :)

Zombicide and Conan both are missing the narrative part. Zombicide is a great game, i like to play it from time to time, and it is difficult, too. But it's missing the "something you have never seen before" part as well as the narrative and the "new Monster" part. The short story, you can put it in the bin. So what is good is the game mechanic only.

Conan is super-balanced between Overlord and Players. After? Beautiful models, but then nothing. It's a really really good skirmish. Not more, not less.

That said, back to topic:
This thread is about how to use the beautiful Zombicide Black Plague or Conan Boards in a game of Heroquest. Those Boards are really great.

What i would like to do in this thread, is developing a method that allows a fellow Heroquest player to use those beautiful game boards in a game of Heroquest.
There are a few things that need to be done.
1) Defining several models in one field. Knightkrawler did deliver a nice definition that can possibly be reused.
2) Reducing the movement so that it fits with the new field size.
3) re-defining ranges. I have adjacent. Diagonal. Long/Extended (It is like diagonal, but in a straight line it has 2 fields range). Ranged (which is line of sight blocked by Monster), the same room (example is trap search), ranged magic (basically ranged, but ignoring monsters for the line of sight). And i have Anywhere on the board (for the Djinn or Fire of Wrath)
4) Find out how traps could possibly work if they cover only a small part of any given field

What i think we could do easily is that
1) Several models in a field: If it fits, it fits. If it does not fit, you cannot stay there. No-one is able to block your movement except if they attack you. (or everybody can stop you so that you have to stay?) If a field is completely full then adjacent attacks from neighbour fields can affect this field.

2) Movement reduction: Roll your dice. You can move one field if the result is less than 10, two fields if it is 10 or more. You get one additional field if you use your action for running or if your model has a special speed rule for moving.
Monsters with less or equal than 6 fields can move 1 field, Monsters with 7 fields or more of movement can do 2 fields. Monsters with 10 fields or more can do 3 fields (yes that one was extra for the goblins :D )

3) If you have as weapon ranges both, Diagonal and Long/Extended (like, two heroquest fields), then you do "adjacent" and "diagonal" works in the same field; extended works in the neighbour field.
If you have only "adjacent" and "diagonal" as ranges, then "diagonal" can attack in the neighbour field and "adjacent" only your own field.

"ranged" / "Line of sight" is quite well defined in Zombicide. I would copy/paste the rule: Straight line of sights possible, but no diagonal line of sights. If the line is going through a door, you can "see" one field beyond the door and then full stop.
Conan Boards actually deliver a mechanism for this, and i would reuse it because there was a lot of thought put into: There are white dots in each field. If you can connect two dots, you have line of sight. If not, then not. Very simple.

Range "Same Room" (like Heroquest treasure/trap search) would work in line of sight (?)

"ranged magic" is indeed quite superfluous on those boards

"anywhere on the board" stays "anywhere on the board" with no change.

4) Traps are difficult. They cover one field in Heroquest, but in Zombicide / Conan fields that makes easily a 9 in 1 chance. If you put pit traps on a Zombicide or Conan board, you will find that easily there are fitting 8 or 9 traps in a field if the field is small like in Zombicide, and up to 22 if the field is big like in the worst examples in Conan.

4.1) Would we define that a trap is always placed by "the evils" in a way that it would work? Then one trap per field would be enough and it is auto-triggered if it is not disarmed.
4.2) Or would "the evils" always trap the entrance? Then the trap triggers only if you use THAT connection between two fields. (a trap would then actually be on a connection and not on a field)
4.3) Or would you roll a d6: If there is one trap, you get trapped on a 1. If there are 2 traps, you get speared on 1 or 2. If there are 4 traps, you fall down the hole on 1, 2, 3, 4.
4.4) Or would you use all the mechanics, as Quest designer choice?

Re: Gameboards of Zombicide and Conan

PostPosted: Tuesday May 16th, 2017 1:42pm
by QorDaq

I love Zcide in it's various versions, but clearly Black Plague (and soon Green Horde), are the most relevant so that's where my brain picture goes. As to the Conan game (and boards specifically), I don't own it, but I suspect most of what would apply for one would work in the other.

Most of what you discuss in terms of mechanics for movement, range, etc. is pretty much what I'd do as well, excepting to clarify that I'd likely maintain the Zcide range and LoS rules for rooms, i.e. a zone that's adjacent to an open "Door" would only have LoS to the next room and not multiple rooms even if LoS could technically (via ruler) cross through multiple doorways.

As for traps? I'd say that since Zcide boards are less granular than the HQ board is, the trap (or its trigger), would simply be "Somewhere" in the trapped zone. My initial inclination would be to say that the first Hero to enter a trapped zone would trigger the trap. Though one could also roll randomly to see who the unlucky Hero might be. In the case of a pit trap, one could certainly drop the whole floor in that zone or just say that a small pit is revealed beneath the targeted Hero. Or both could be a thing, i.e. traps that affect a whole zone vs traps that only affect one target. Plenty of logical options.

Regardless, from the first time I saw the Black Plague boards, I knew that they'd have a lot of potential value for HQ when it comes to "Town" or "Village" encounters/ quests, or even for in-between dungeons. As a side note, there are some great fan-created Black Plague tiles over on, The French Zombicide Fan Site, and in particular, The Necromancer's Sanctuary by Wawan, which is quite beautiful and lends itself well for a sprawling interior fortress/dungeon/ or whatever.

I'm curious to see what you finally decide to do.


Re: Gameboards of Zombicide and Conan

PostPosted: Tuesday May 16th, 2017 4:52pm
by mitchiemasha
So for me the game begins before the game. I make a mission, i make the rules, i make a story. Afterwards it is quite rewarding for me to watch the players how well or not well they do with the mission that i invented, seeing where they have fun and where it was not-so-good so that i can be better next time.

Totally... YES!!!

Re: Gameboards of Zombicide and Conan

PostPosted: Friday June 16th, 2017 6:35pm
by Daedalus
I have some alternative thoughts for ya on what needs to be done.

1) Defining model limit and positioning in a space: A Hero or monster may only move into a space if its base entirely fits within an accessible part of that space with any other models and furniture. For part of a space to be accessible to a figure, there must be a clear pathway wide enough to accommodate it's base. A space may be moved through as long as a clear path across exists. Enemy figures may not be moved through and block movement, though friendly figures may be moved through.
2) Reducing the movement: Heroes and figures with a move score of 6 to 8 may move up to 2 spaces in a turn. A Hero in plate mail and figures with a move of 5 or less move just 1 space in a turn, while figures with a move of 9 or more get to move up to 3 spaces each turn. A Hero that both moves his maximum distance and reduces a monster's Body Points to 0 must roll his movement dice. If the monster's movement score is greater than the roll, it may immediately attack the Hero (if possible) before being removed. [This represents a monster getting initiative and attacking first before it is killed. With gridded movement, this can happen when a Hero begins far enough away that his movement is insufficient to engage with a first attack.]
3) Redefining ranges: Adjacent-- a figure's base is within half the length of the attacking figure's base; diagonal-- a figure's base is within the length of the attacking figure's base; ranged-- any length if an unobstructed straight line can be traced from the center of the attacker's or spellcaster's base to the center of the target's base. All ranges work independently of space borders.
4) Find out how traps could possibly work: An HQ game should retain searches for traps and disarming, in my opinion. Any reasonable number of traps may be in a space, as shown on the Quest map. If a Hero takes an action before searching for traps in a space, he triggers a trap. Other Heroes may likewise trigger any remaining undiscovered traps if present. Once searched for, traps are placed, removed, or revealed based on the HQ rules used. M/Z estimates placement of a trap based on the Quest map. Traps placed on borders sounds cool, though I'd leave it as a special for the Quest Notes.

Re: Gameboards of Zombicide and Conan

PostPosted: Saturday June 17th, 2017 1:14am
by knightkrawler
More definition ideas from my Morcar Compendium,
simply copied and pasted:

Base Sizes

The default base size for a figure used in HQ – Heroes & Villains is either 25 mm square or round or 30 mm/32 mm round. All these variants have a size that allows one such figure to occupy one square when you use boards or tiles as suggested in Readme (either 30 or 40 mm squares). But there are ways to incorporate the use of figures that use different base sizes and thus different rules.

Generally, if multiple figures' bases fit in the same square, they can occupy it together, provided that the entire surfaces of all their bases fit completely within the confines of the square. All these figures are considered orthogonally adjacent to each other, even two figures of four that are in opposite corners of the square, which means they can all attack one of the other ones once per turn. This is important for base sizes smaller than the default size. All the figures in the same square are also adjacent to every square that is adjacent to theirs. For instance, if the Guildmage is adjacent to a square that contains four Goblins, all these Goblins can attack him on their individual turns.

There are also bigger base sizes, first among them the 40 mm size. Figures with this base size still fit normally into one square, provided you play on a 40 mm grid layout as recommended. The Push Back rule cannot be used on them.

If a figure's base is even bigger, then the figure occupies more than one square. To determine how many and which ones, squeeze the figure with its base edge against two perpendicular sides of one square and see which square sides the base overlaps. All the squares the base is in even with the smallest surface are occupied by that one figure. Yet, if another figure's base fits into such a square without overlapping any sides, then that figure may also occupy the same square the large figure does. Both figures are then considered orthogonally adjacent to each other.

To move a figure on a large base, you pick one of the squares it occupies as the part of the figure that moves, pulling the rest along, so to speak. You can turn the figure freely and there is no directional facing. All squares adjacent to any one square occupied by that figure are considered orthogonally adjacent to the figure. For a figure occupying two squares this means there are ten squares around it that it can attack or treat as orthogonally adjacent squares. For a figure occupying three squares it is twelve adjacent squares. For a figure occupying four squares (2x2 on the grid) it is twelve squares, for a figure occupying six squares (2x3 on the grid) it is fourteen squares. A figure may only move through a door if the door covers at least as many squares as the shorter side of the figure's base, which means that figures that cover more than three squares can only move through double doors.