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Crazy Thought Experiment/Logic Problem

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Re: Crazy Thought Experiment/Logic Problem

Postby Gold Bearer » Saturday July 2nd, 2016 3:20pm

This post is going to be sciency but it shouldn't be a problem because this topic is not intended to push any particular view. It's only intended to make people think.

mitchiemasha wrote:For me this is one of those questions that has no right or wrong answer... Mainly as that computer does not exist. The question is designed to see how you subconsciously think (with out realising unless you've thought deeply into it) how the universe works.

Box A always has 1000 init box b either has 100 or 1,000,000. Either the amount can change based on your choice or the amount will stay the same, which is the model of the universe do you think exists?

If you take both boxes you believe the universe works in away that belief has no influence. Because, if there was 1,000,000 in box b there always will of been that much in the box, regardless to your choice. Same for if it is 100.

if you take box B, you believe belief does have influence, your choice can change the amount in the box.
It's more about whether you believe your decision can have an influence, your belief definitely does. If you believe the amount can change based on your choice then you'll pick box B and get the million but if you believe the amount will stay the same then you'll take both boxes and only win 1,100 and the computer will never be wrong.

That still wouldn't answer the question of whether the decision itself can affect the outcome of something that's already happened and it raises the question of whether there is even ever a choice or just belief.

I made sure to mention that it's a quantum computer because the idea that actions in the present can affect the past is a trippy part of the uncertainty principle. The uncertainty principle states that you can't know both the exact potion and the exact velocity of a particle simultaneously. The more accurately you can measure one, the less accurately you can measure the other and no measuring equipment well ever be able to measure both simultaneously. because of the way measurements on that scale have to be done using waves and the fact that the act of measuring itself affects the particle. This means that by knowing its position and/or velocity in the present you can directly affect its position and/or velocity in the past. This gameshow scenario is the same thing on a larger scale.

mitchiemasha wrote:I suppose it all depends on at what point or who puts the money in the box. If the question says the computer will put in 100 or 1,000,000 it changes the problem.
Who doesn't matter, the amount depends only on the program's prediction. It's done before you're asked the question.
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Re: Crazy Thought Experiment/Logic Problem

Postby knightkrawler » Saturday July 2nd, 2016 3:23pm

knightkrawler wrote:Right now I also found out the meaning. Took me a while and struck me in the back of my head.
Box A is the suggested and guaranteed sum of happiness you can have.
Box B with 100 is believing in something (transcendental) without success because you don't invest in it.
Box B with 1,000,000 is believing in this something with complete confidence, trusting only it.

So, there you have the analogy between GB's model and religion.
But I don't believe in god, yet I'd go for B only because of logical reasons. At least for what I can grasp for logic.


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Re: Crazy Thought Experiment/Logic Problem

Postby Gold Bearer » Saturday July 2nd, 2016 3:27pm

Anderas wrote:As we said the game show is running a long time already and the computer has proven to be always right, the question, the doubt, the need for believing, doesn't exist anymore. The choice is crystal clear and based on hard logic.
It's been running a while and the program has never been wrong. I'm not saying your choice is wrong (in fact it would probably win you 1,000,000 space credits) but it certainly isn't crystal clear. There's lots of logical ways of looking at this.

knightkrawler wrote:
knightkrawler wrote:Right now I also found out the meaning. Took me a while and struck me in the back of my head.
Box A is the suggested and guaranteed sum of happiness you can have.
Box B with 100 is believing in something (transcendental) without success because you don't invest in it.
Box B with 1,000,000 is believing in this something with complete confidence, trusting only it.

So, there you have the analogy between GB's model and religion.
But I don't believe in god, yet I'd go for B only because of logical reasons. At least for what I can grasp for logic.


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Already have.
Gold Bearer wrote:
mitchiemasha wrote:if you take box B, you believe belief does have influence, your choice can change the amount in the box.
It's more about whether you believe your decision can have an influence, your belief definitely does. If you believe the amount can change based on your choice then you'll pick box B and get the million but if you believe the amount will stay the same then you'll take both boxes and only win 1,100 and the computer will never be wrong.
;)
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Re: Crazy Thought Experiment/Logic Problem

Postby knightkrawler » Saturday July 2nd, 2016 3:35pm

Aaaah... :cheese:
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Re: Crazy Thought Experiment/Logic Problem

Postby mitchiemasha » Saturday July 2nd, 2016 11:16pm

Gold Bearer wrote:I made sure to mention that it's a quantum computer


it doesn't matter if it's a quantum computer or not... you could of said its a quackadoodal computer... at this level, it's still hypothetical (i might be using the wrong term). Even once we have fully operational quantum computers, they may not compute in this way.
Last edited by mitchiemasha on Saturday July 2nd, 2016 11:33pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Crazy Thought Experiment/Logic Problem

Postby mitchiemasha » Saturday July 2nd, 2016 11:25pm

Anderas wrote:It has not a lot to do with believe... As we said the game show is running a long time already and the computer has proven to be always right, the question, the doubt, the need for believing, doesn't exist anymore. The choice is crystal clear and based on hard logic.


You totally misinterpreted the 'belief' aspect to which I intended. In universe A, the contents of the box can change, in universe B the contents of the box can not, it all depends on if the real reality is actually universe A or universe B. The question is designed to see which version of the universe YOU think exists! Neither side, with current science, can prove if the universe is A or B.

As said earlier... The cat in the box... if you are new to the cat in the box, non of this will make sense!!!


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Re: Crazy Thought Experiment/Logic Problem

Postby Gold Bearer » Sunday July 3rd, 2016 8:52am

mitchiemasha wrote:
Gold Bearer wrote:I made sure to mention that it's a quantum computer
it doesn't matter if it's a quantum computer or not... you could of said its a quackadoodal computer... at this level, it's still hypothetical (i might be using the wrong term). Even once we have fully operational quantum computers, they may not compute in this way.
True, the mechanism that the computer uses to predict your chioce isn't important. It just needs to be a highly advanced program that has never been wrong. I meant I mentioned that it's a quantum computer simply to bring it up because quantum mechanics is important to this dilemma. Without it I think the only logical choice is to choose both boxes because the dicision doesn't affact what's in box B so you've got nothing to lose by taking both but you'll lose 1,000 if you only take box B however much money box B has.

If you believe that your decision can affect the amount in box B then you should choose to only take box B and do it as quickly and decisively as you can because that will make the computer program less likely to be wrong and you'll get 1,000,000 credits simply because you believe that you will.

If you believe that your decision can affect the amount in box B then you should take both boxes and you'll only get 1,100 because you didn't believe. So if you can force yourself to believe then you'll get 1,000,000 but if you don't belive it works that way then why bother trying to force yourself to believe it does? My brain is starting to hurt.

To me common sense screams to take both boxes. My head would be saying 'Fool! Why do you need to think about this? There's two boxes and you can have one or both, take both, obviously!'. But my heart would be saying 'The computer's never been wrong. If you just take box B then the computer will have known you were going to do that. Take box B and just be glad to have 1,000,000 galatic space credits. You can worry about how it works later when you're doing lines off a hooker's tummy'.
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Re: Crazy Thought Experiment/Logic Problem

Postby QorDaq » Sunday July 3rd, 2016 10:43am

Firstly, 'B' clearly.

Next, the inclusion of a computer at all is unimportant fluff. The Computer does nothing at all to influence the outcome unless the "Player" makes an assumption that the computer is trying to "Win" by predicting and somehow forcing the player to make a decision that will pay out less than 1,000,000.

It would be different *IF* the statement establishes that the Computer, because of it's ability to accurately predict the Player's actions, will be able to cheat the player out of a win X% of the time or similar. But it does not.

So, if the 1,000,000 credits are worth at least an adjusted 0.15 USD, then that's a 10% off coupon for a Diet Space Pepsi and I'm in.
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Re: Crazy Thought Experiment/Logic Problem

Postby whitebeard » Sunday July 3rd, 2016 11:02am

Gold Bearer wrote:To me common sense screams to take both boxes. My head would be saying 'Fool! Why do you need to think about this? There's two boxes and you can have one or both, take both, obviously!'. But my heart would be saying 'The computer's never been wrong. If you just take box B then the computer will have known you were going to do that. Take box B and just be glad to have 1,000,000 galatic space credits. You can worry about how it works later when you're doing lines off a hooker's tummy'.


If the computer is designed such that it has never been wrong, what makes YOU so special? We can invent mechanisms whereby the device works, be it quantum entanglement or monkey fondling reciprocating lubricators, but none of that is relevant. The fact is that the computer is always right. If you take both boxes then you lose. If you take box B you win. End of story.

If you take both boxes you can be tricked into thinking that you won, because box B did in fact contain 100 units. And if you take Box B only you can think yourself an idiot for leaving behind 1000 units. But neither of those outcomes were ever really possible.

Does quantum entanglement result in a similar situation which is testable on a particle level? Yes. Will this ever scale to the type of "personal" problem you are talking about? Dunno. If I had to guess I'd say "no". As it may not be possible to maintain the property over a significant timescale. Science fiction it is :D


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Re: Crazy Thought Experiment/Logic Problem

Postby Goblin-King » Sunday July 3rd, 2016 11:08am

Gold Bearer wrote:If you believe that your decision can affect the amount in box B then you should choose to only take box B and do it as quickly and decisively as you can because that will make the computer program less likely to be wrong and you'll get 1,000,000 credits simply because you believe that you will.

If you believe that your decision can affect the amount in box B then you should take both boxes and you'll only get 1,100 because you didn't believe. So if you can force yourself to believe then you'll get 1,000,000 but if you don't belive it works that way then why bother trying to force yourself to believe it does? My brain is starting to hurt.

That is sort of an assumption; that you must go from certainty to doubt over time. You could might as well go from doubt and build up your certainty. Just saying...

But isn't the computer always right? Isn't that the whole point?


Gold Bearer wrote:To me common sense screams to take both boxes. My head would be saying 'Fool! Why do you need to think about this? There's two boxes and you can have one or both, take both, obviously!'. But my heart would be saying 'The computer's never been wrong. If you just take box B then the computer will have known you were going to do that. Take box B and just be glad to have 1,000,000 galatic space credits.

Can box B contain 100 rupees if you only chose B? The way you describe it it sounds like B will only be reduced from 1.000.000 to 100 if you chose A+B and it was predicted.
That would mean choosing only B is always a safe choice. Especially because the amount in A is irrelevant.


Gold Bearer wrote:You can worry about how it works later when you're doing lines off a hooker's tummy'.

Choosing her tummy... :roll:


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