Actors for HQ Movie

[knightkrawler]

At the core lies a perception that male and female brains work differently. Oh wait, no, that's a fact, right? Educate me, anyone, if I'm wrong.
Men are better at some stuff, women at others. Men want different things than women. Of course there's also individual talents and cravings that make the lines blur considerably, but that fact is the foundation of how men and women came to be treated differently and have treated each other, thus pushing each other into gender roles.

[cynthialee]

So I been thinking...I do that on occasion:
Fine, the heroes and main villains are likely to be male due to the nature of the events unfolding. We have a war between powerful forces, armies are involved and the mainly armies are men.
But including a few women would have been nice. I understand that the vast majority of players of these types of games are men, but could that not be a result of marketing?
My game table is 3 girls and a guy. About 1/4 of my female friends have played RPG style games but few are die hard gamers who would rather spend a night playing than partying. I think this is due to a disconnect between the salesman and the customer. Imagine had the original Hero Quest commercial had 2 little girls and 3 boys playing the game... The EWP one of the girls and the group is shown as needing each others abilities to survive a heinous challenge. Might the game have drawn in more female interest?
When I go to the store and look for mini's that are female there is a much more limited selection of mini's and what is available in most situations is that all the female mini's are hot, and the ones that are not, are villains. I can go and get a pudgy male warrior or mage very easily, but a plain Jane warrior? She doesn't exist. And then there is the bikini mail.....only Ren Faire women wear that stuff and only on hot days. Now I did find a bar wench from Reaper that is a neat looking average chubby woman, but I would like to see her ready for war in another version, that would rock. And do not get me started on the available slave mini's out there...not a man slave in the bunch. Just harems of scantily clad women made only to serve as eye candy...Where is my string of chained men doing hard labor?!

[torilen]

Most likely, the salesmen marketed the game to those who were going to buy it - sames as today. RPG games
are, for the most part, played by males - as you yourself have stated, and the bit of marketing seen for them
are geared toward males. Same as video games - you'll find women who like playing games, but there are
an extremely small few who are die hard gamers. SOOOOO - most of the games and most of the marketing
is geared toward males. Even online games - Game of Wars comes to mind - the commercials for that are
certainly geared toward men.

Your argument is the same as something I saw on facebook recently - a woman I know was talking about the
problem of violence within the sports circles, and how having more females owners and coaches and such might
cut down on the violence toward women...might help the players view women in a better light. This woman said
that sports seems very discriminatory and sexist.

My argument against that is basically the same as I used just now. Sure, women would probably make great owners
and coaches, but how many women do you know who grow up saying, "I want to own a sports team when I grow up"?
Very few. And I seriously doubt it has to do with how they are raised...not in today's society. It's just that woman
typically hate sports...they see sports as boring...as something that takes away from their time with their boyfriends
and date nights and such...something that takes their husbands away from family time. So, no, they're not going to
want to grow up and own a sports team or be a coach.

Face it. Little girls see gamer-boys as nerds and geeks. High school girls view them the same way. Even adult women
see most gamer-men as nerds and geeks. I can't tell you how many times my wife has called me a geek for playing
rpg's.

THAT is why the game industry is geared toward boys and men. And THAT is why you will find very few female mini's
and few female heroes.

[cynthialee]

But that is because of the inherent patriarchal system we live under.
If more games were marketed to women more women would play. Assumptions are made and ran with that perpetuate the enforcement of gendered stereotypes.

And the statistics are not significantly in favor of males play more than females:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morn ... nage-boys/

The average gamer may not be who you think he is.

Women older than 18 are 36 percent of the game-playing population, while boys younger than 18 are only 17 percent, according to a recent study by the gaming advocacy group Entertainment Software Association.

The number of female gamers age 50 and older increased by 32 percent from 2012 to 2013.

Men still make up 52 percent of the game-playing population, but women, now 48 percent of the gaming population compared with just 40 percent in 2010, are closing in. The rising popularity of mobile gaming is one reason why.

[torilen]

I did some research myself just now. There are a lot of reports
that say females are making up an increasing number of players
in the gaming industry, and one report that says there are more
females than ever going to comic con.

I have some problems with these reports, though. Almost all of them
point back to one study - 2013 Essential Facts About the Computer
and Video Game Industry - which cannot be found (it has been replaced
by the 2014 version, which states pretty much the same, it seems).
This report ws done by the biggest association for the gaming industry,
and they could have their own underlying motives in the way the stats
are being read and reported.

Let us assume, though, that they do not have underlying motives.
One of the biggest stat restated in almost every single article says
more women play games. The ESA report simply states that women over age 18
play games more than boys under age 18. This is a stupid
comparison, since women over 18 will typically have the money to
buy games and play them, whereas boys under 18 will usually have to
wait for parents to buy the games.

This report also includes games played on mobile devices. The report
then states that the typical type of game played on mobile devices are
casual and social games. These would be things like Candy Crush, Words
with Friends, and such type games...those found on facebook.

The report also says that rpg video games (typically fantasy-type)
make up only 7% of those games bought.

Putting all of the stats and articles together, there could be a clear reason why
more females are being seen in the gaming industry and in the "geek"
realm of comic-con and such. Games such as the sims and Dance games...
all of the facebook social games...the disney Kingdom Hearts games...
and of course things like the Twilight book series and all of those
horrible fantasy-drama shows on the CW, like Vampire Diaries...these
would all be a very good reason for more females being seen.

These are not good indicators, though. Most of these cater to just
a few small niche groups, and none of them would be interested in D&D
and/or games like heroquest or the Munchkin card game or such actual
fantasy role-playing games.

One other thing - a common thread in a lot of stuff I read is that one
of the problems is the lack of female leadership and females game creators.
Okay...so fix it. Why don't women make games? I'll use the same argument.
Probably because women don't see the gaming industry as something they
want to grow up and enter. How many teenage girls or young college age
women are saying, "There aren't enough video games and role playing games
geared toward females. I'm going to fix that and create some"? There might be
a few who think about it...maybe even a lot. But they think about it for a bit,
then find something else they like better. Very few are so commited that they
follow through.

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Don't get me wrong - I have absolutely no problem with females playing
games. I have no problem with females creating the games. I would love
to see more females playing games - especially rpg's and tabletop
games. I would love to see the "geek boy" stereotype of gamers go away.
I don't see it happening any time soon, though.

But, quite honestly, I get real tired of people saying things like you said...
"You are applying the morals of the past onto a fantasy world that exists in our minds only. Glorantha could be in the future or the past.
But that is beside the point...Equitable treatment is not asking allot from the world. It literally takes not one thing from men."

No one is trying to keep women down or keep them out of the industry. If women
wany equality in the industry, they need to take action and fix the problem that
someone, somewhere, perceives is a problem.

[torilen]

Here are a couple of other articles that sort of prove my point.
http://usabilitynews.org/video-games-ma ... er-social/

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2 ... -games-iab

In doing yet more research on this - trying very hard to find even a shred of evidence to your
point with the washington post article - I have still found almost NOTHING that points to anything
other than the same ESA annual report (entertainment software association - I think I forgot to
mention the full name of the association before). I found only one article that mentioned that it
did its own report. None of them really say anything of substance. They simply restate the stats
found in the ESA report, and then go on to moan and whine and complain about how women really
do play games and need to be represented in both the games and in the industry as leaders. None of
them offer solutions for the "problem" or offer any reason for the "problem", aside from rolling out
the same overused terms - sexist, patriarchal, male-dominated, etc.

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And while we're talking about equality and such - why don't we talk about the reverse. Okay..women
can be gamers and like gaming and rpg's and such. Why aren't men allowed to like knitting and sewing
and other such activities? You almost never see males taking part in these activites in the media...movies
and tv and such...and when you do, it is usually as a joke, or they get mocked and then decide that they
shouldn't do that any more because it is a female activity.

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Now, let me offer my own female-viewpoint thought here. One of the big problems I personally
see with the "male-dominated" rpg industry. That problem is the sexual drawings used of women
in the books - the biggest being the chainmail or gold plate bikini. I hate this crap. I would love to
show some of these books to my son - go back especially to the 80's to some of the more famous
fantasy artists - constantly have scantily clad or naked females in all the paintings. I can't show that
mess to my 5 year old son. I couldn't show that to him when he turns 10.

And I still see this stuff. Look at World of Warcraft. A lot of the females are still fairly scantily clad
in the just right places. There's no reason for it. Scratch it up to the fact that males are the main
customers of the products...yes, that is the truth...but there is still no reason for it.

[torilen]

One other thing just occurred to me. You said:
You are applying the morals of the past onto a fantasy world that exists in our minds only.

Well, let's not forget that, unless the world specifically states that it takes place in a future
time period, most fantasy rpg's take place in a medieval/renaissance/victorian time period.
Those morals apply very well to that sort of fantasy. Kings are the leaders of the lands...and
their sons typically will be the heir to the throne. Men are the soldiers who go out to war,
and women stay home and take care of the family. That's how life was then.

Now, I will agree with what you are going to say...that's not how it has to be. There is no reason
why the game designers can't design a world in which the patriarchal manhood of medieval life
never really took hold and women are allowed to do and be whatever they want.

Let me say this, though. That is just how life was - history says so. That's what people today know.
I am a writer - I have a degree in it. My hobby is game design and fantasy world building - I have done
a lot of it and a lot of study and research into it. In order to create a good fantasy world, the writer
has to do one of two things: Be able to take the base knowledge of the reader and build upon it or
be able to give the reader enough information from the start to allow that reader to enter the world
and still think it believable. The second situation is much harder to do, because you have to be able to
keep the reader reading until they have all the information needed. Giving a reader a medieval fantasy
world that is as close to the real historical world as possible just makes more sense - especially when the
writer already knows he will be including crazy monsters, magic, and new sets of gods in his fantasy
world that the reader will have to accept in order to delve into the world and enjoy it.

[GimmeYerGold]

I think your justifications of how the system currently works is a justification for why the encouragement, invitation, and inclusion of a more diverse audience is important for the future of fantasy.

This is not about the expressed interest of the reader or gamer being attracted to a certain genre, because there is abundant evidence to show the limits of many of these creator's imaginations only go so far, so far to include fantastical magic, monsters, and epic battles, but not far enough to consider real people different from the creator's field of experience who might populate these worlds. Because how those real people are represented is what will communicate to the outside world who these fantasy worlds were explicitly created for.

No matter the setting, realer representation of real people is what makes fantasy believable.

We can examine fantasy and be critical of its flaws while still enjoying it--this is not about every fantasy passing a certain criteria to be acceptable--but we can stop and recognize the shortcomings of what we're building upon, and realize how that can cripple the future of fantasy.

I love reading Tolkien. But the more I want to find out about Middle Earth, the more I see that it's like the real world, unfortunately. There are histories we won't ever know about because the author of this fantasy world simply did not consider certain things.

We won't know more about Dwarven women other than a footnote at best. The works of Tolkien, like so much of the other foundations of fantasy, are considered sacred, and archetype.

If the real world influences fantasy, then the reverse is also true. Our collective myths, stories, art, films and games have influenced how we see the world. Taking an active role in positively shaping the future of fantasy can positively shape the real world.

I don't think it's fair to put the responsibility for being included in a genre solely on the groups who wish to be included--there is responsibility on the current creators of fantasy to realize they are setting an example, because they are the examples we look to when citing representation.

More people than ever are enjoying fantasy and board games for the first time. It would be hypocritical for anyone who calls themselves a nerd, geek, or whatever to not be inclusive of someone else who is also different from enjoying fantasy too.

Back to the business and marketing argument, check out this snippet from D&D version 5 character creation basic rules:

The elf god Corellon Larethian is often seen as androgynous or hermaphroditic, for example, and some elves in the multiverse are made in Corellon's image. You could also play a female character who presents herself as a man, a man who feels trapped in a female body, or a bearded female dwarf who hates being mistaken for a male. Likewise, your character's sexual orientation is for you to decide.

Including this takes nothing away from players who already enjoy the game, but adds so much for players who are not traditionally considered "the target market." Marketing is about dividing people up in easily analyzable subsets so they can be served advertisements more effectively--to say that it's a real representation of how people function is giving them too much credit.

Rather than digging your heels in and defending tradition, consider the positives that fantasy has given you over the years, and try to imagine if you were never you, you were someone else, a kind of person not represented in fantasy, because, for no good reason, a person like you being gainfully included in a fantasy world is more unbelievable than a fire-breathing dragon.

Fantasy for all.

[cynthialee]

Thank you GyG.

The incidence of females playing role playing games will increase when the salesman changes how they market.

Like I said, the group I play with is 3 females 1 male. Of course our games are a little different than standard fair. There is allot more wringing of hands over the potential impact of the heroes actions on the game worlds citizens than I have seen in male centric games. There is a Lich Dragon still in control of one of my realms continents because the players figured the fiend wasn't doing such a bad job of being the sovereign and the other options for a successor were not so stable. They didn't want to destabilize the region. Also we tend to spend an inordinate amount of time talking out plans considered to most games I have played in but it is a result of the people at the table. But the end results are pretty much the same...villains get to being villainous so heroes go forth and correct them in a mainly violent way. Sure there may be a love story role played along the way, but girls gonna play what we like.

[torilen]

Well, you both make very good arguments. I've had my say, so I'll let it drop.
As I've said, I have no problem with females in the game industry or being represented more. Quite honestly,
in my own writing, I have quite a number of female leaders and heroes, just because I enjoy the idea of a strong
female character and the idea of turning the "traditional" male controlled fantasy world upside down.
Just a few examples
- One women who is a tracker and guide ends up becoming a powerful cleric and religious leader
- One princess becomes queen when her father dies and has to put down a rebellion because some don't want a queen
- One women - powerful wizard - is ruler of her land
- One female half-elf is aid to the dwarf king and very influential

As I said...just a couple...these were some of the first characters I came up with back in the 90's, when I was in high school.