The Alchemist's Bench: drug pros and cons

[wolfie907]

the people i know invariably smoke excessive amounts and are generally lazy and unmotivated at the expense of others around them. i mean that literally in that i have a brother whose main motivation in a day is to take bong rips and play video games while living in a bus in my parents front yard with his old lady and 2 kids. now that may not all be weeds fault but it is a major part and that is dumb [he is 25] that is one example . another is i got caught with a pound of weed bagged in ounces and got a two year prison sentence out of it, also dumb in my opinion. by the way i liked that video and shared it on facebook

[Count Von Bruno]

Yes I think it is ridiculous how Marijuana is treated in a lot of places, as I said before I think alcohol is a hell of a lot more destructive than it is.
Yes, some people can't handle it-just like alcohol...I don't advocate being a lazy pothead (just like how I don't advocate being a violent or driving drunk) but like anything some people can handle it some can't.

[Gold Bearer]

the people i know invariably smoke excessive amounts and are generally lazy and unmotivated at the expense of others around them. i mean that literally in that i have a brother whose main motivation in a day is to take bong rips and play video games while living in a bus in my parents front yard with his old lady and 2 kids. now that may not all be weeds fault but it is a major part and that is dumb [he is 25] that is one example

Well it makes you happy, so you can end up being happy with a situation that would be unbearable without weed. That's not really a good thing, but I don't consider it the drugs fault. It also makes you far less materialistic in general, which is a good thing.

another is i got caught with a pound of weed bagged in ounces and got a two year prison sentence out of it, also dumb in my opinion.

That's harsh, but carrying it around bagged up in ounces isn't the same as taking it, that is dangerous.

[Big Bene]

Well, it just happened how I feared it would - the debate started over again, and again it turns mainly around the question how "harmful" weed is, expecially compared to traditionally legal drugs.
I don't want to fuel this discussion, so I will only answer to Golb Bearer's first reply to my post, as it concerns myself, and leave everything else stand as it does.
And, Gold Bearer, I don't want to attack you as a person here. Although I'm obviousely not of your opinion, and think your reasoning in this discussion is false, you always backed up your statements and didn't willingly insult others (like CP did).

You're being very defensive, are you okay? "(and yes, the last statements may be slightly inaccurate - I didn't make any efforts to double-check them. They are just the first exaples that came to me from the back of my head. So don't waste your time trying to prove me "wrong" in these points)."

Perhaps I'm defensive here, but I normally only make statements about subjects I know, so I went out of my way here.

Of course choosing not to do any illegal substances is just as valid a choice as choosing to do them, but it's nothing to be proud of, that's just silly. Anyone can choose not to do something.

But very often it is hard to stay true to such a decission. You may choose to never ever lie, or not to ever put up a fight, or not to consume psychedelic drugs, or to do some sport every day, or read two good books a year, and you can define for yourself the details of these decissions (e. g. which drugs are acceptable). Everybody has such principles, some based on conscious decissions, some rather instictive, but there are always "temptations", situations where it would be easier to give up the principle.
Staying true to one's principles is a thing to be proud of. And Sjeng should be proud of staying true to his ones.
And anyone who doesn't share these princlples and feels "looked upon on" when Sjeng states his view is just oversensitive - or wants to put of an argument.
(that of course doesn't mean you should not question your principles time and again).

And as for smoking is disgusting, seriously. Rape is disgusting, child abuse is disgusting, smoking? Seriously?

"Disgusting" is Sjeng's wording, not mine, but I would also find nothinig wrong in describing something like smoking as "disgusting", as it is annoying (by it's stink) and even a bit harmful for bystanders. Of course there are things which are more disgusting, but there are only so many words. Which one would you use to describe smoking, If it would really annoy you? You can always use a comperative "X is more disgusting than Y" if you want to go into greater detail. Change "disgusting" for "annoying" if it makes you feel better. This is a fight over words.

CP didn't start this debate. He just his frustration get the better of him.

That's the whole point I was trying to make.
Sjeng made a personal statement. CP startet a debate, and in an extremely agressive way:

I don't believe for one second that you've never taken any drugs. - accuses him of lie No anesthetics or medicines? - knew pretty well that these were not what Sjeng ment Who are you trying to please with that, your parents? - now that's well blelow the belt There's not a whole lot of difference between the excesses of pragmatic miniature collecting and recreational drug use (including cigarettes). - this (unproven) statement reaches out to hit all forum members, so to better start a heated debate (trolling) In either case you're buying self-satisfaction. Every single great mind and author of our modern era used drugs.- depends on which authors you consider "great". Implies that intelligent people use drugs, and not using drugs shows lack of intelligence (or creativity, or whatever makes a "great author")

And as he probably hoped fore, the debate caused people to come fore to fight, the thread went on and on.
This debeate is pretty much meaningless by itself. The obvious synthesis that everybody is responsible for himself was found pretty soon, but this didn't stop the heated argument. If you have a short look on CP's post history, youll find it very improbable that his frustration just got the better of him. He likes debating for debating's sake.

Lot's of people do think that it's more harmful than alcohol and tobacco believe or not.

Nobody I ever discussed this topic with. Probably there are people out there who do think so, but I never met one. There are always ignorant people, but I would normally not look for them in this forum. By preaching the obvious, you are assuming that your audience is ignorant.

Chemicals that are naturally produced by our bodies don't have any side effects.

Every drug (including medical ones) only has an effect in the body/brain because it is similar or related to a natural component of human biochemistry. Opium and it's derivates are similar to endorphines. And you can get heavy side effects when taking substances that are produces naturally by your body. A dose of estrogen, anyone?

Laws do have an effect on what's socially acceptable, it's a two-way street. Some people really are that easy to influence.

Of course. Nothing in the real world is monocausal. But mainly, the influence goes from social standards to laws. But discussing this in detail would go away from topic.

The only real side effect from weed is a lack of energy if you have a lot.
It's not addictive in the slightest. No matter ho much you want it to be or how much you slant the words you right to emphasis them it simply isn't true. It's not hard to prove that a substance is addictive if it really is, look at the ones that are. Even if it were true, tobacco and alcohol are very addictive and they can actually hurt you. I'd built up such a resistance that it was doing anything any more so I stopped doing it all the time. That was over a year ago now. Before my last lot I went over six months with any at all. That was a tiny amount over four months ago and I haven't had any since. I'm getting a proper amount tonight strangely. I've well and truly lost my resistance now so I can start enjoying again, and watching a football match just isn't the same without for some reason and I think we could do really well in this tournament, even though we lost our first game.

You're being very defensive, are you okay? Get a breath.

Discussing the addictive-nes of cannabis derivates is not my point. I only mentioned my view on this as a side note. May it be a bit addictve in a psychological kind of way or may it be not addictive at all - it doesn't bother me. Take it if you please, and respect the decission of others not to take it. And if they are proud not to take (most) drugs and have not included your beloved weed on their list of accepted exceptions, you should respect this, too. You can take the opportunity to sate your own view, but don't attack them for making a personal statement. And certainly not ask them to apologize to a troll.

How do you know your friend is addicted? Because they smoke it a lot? I was smoking a lot of it, every day for about fifteen years. You'd have no doubt assumed that constitutes an addiction.

No. I assume someone addicted to something when he can't quit even if he would like to. As much as I know, this is the definition of the word. And that's the case with my friend, as he told me himself.

[knightkrawler]

I assume someone addicted to something when he can't quit even if he would like to. As much as I know, this is the definition of the word. And that's the case with my friend, as he told me himself.

So, there was the point (or rather period of time) where I WANTED to quit Meth, but COULDN'T (I tried four times before I managed). So, according to your definition, that I hope you reconsider, I was never addicted, although I couldn't quit using the *lemony goodness*. That is so contradictory it's not even funny. However, I prefer to just assume you chose the wrong wording entirely.
Because, I consider myself off drugs at 3 weeks not using the stuff. That was when I didn't have the urge anymore (the addiction). So, was I addicted during those three weeks (I felt I was because it took some effort, let me tell you) or was I not?
Was I addicted during the year I used the stuff like Maradona or was I not? I am quite certain I was because I DIDN'T WANT TO quit (though I could maybe have!). I merely mean that above definition is definitely wrong with that wording. I also know you're way too intelligent to not have an intuitive opinion that probably is right without you feeling the urge to put it into words.

Maybe it's more like this: You're addicted if your body or mind urges you to continue and as long as you do not manage to quit.
As soon as you either want to quit and go through with it, and as soon as neither your body nor your mind urge you to continue, you're not addicted.
Maybe addiction is one of these things that can only be FALSIFIED and not VERIFIED. A lot of scientific stuff works that way. A theory stays a theory as long as it can neither be verified nor falsified. And many many things cannot be verified, falsify me if I'm wrong.

This is the first instance I put this into words, and it feels a teensy bit cathartic, so Thank You, Big Bene, for making me follow through with this little strain of thought.
I hope I can make you do the same, though I do think your wording is just sloppy there.

[Sjeng]

man this is a sticky subject first to sjeng I freaked out more then necessary about my posts and I hope there are no hard feelings and if so I apologize

No need to apologize, no hard feelings I can understand how you'd be upset a bit if someone was dabbling with your posts when you were trying to make a point. Just trying to clean up the thread a bit was all

wow 2 pages added since my last visit xD

@Big Bene: you sure know how to write a well written post. I fear I'm not that eloquent, and not that good at debating. I applaud you you are the master (to be clear: I'm not being sarcastic, I really love your posts).

And to all others: I'm glad that even though this is still a touchy subject, and opinions are quite different, everyone is discussing it like gentlemen.

[drathe]

I have decided that this debate has come to a close. It has gone on long enough and I feel that it is causing too much tension between Ye Olde Inn members to continue.

Both sides of the debate now seem to be spinning in circles. Drugs are one of those touchy topics that is very difficult to debate as it's extremely difficult, if not near impossible, to alter the views/opinions of people.

The only clear fact that I can gather from this thread is: Everyone has their opinions on the use of various drugs and personal reasons for those opinions.

Each and every one of us has a right to their own personal feelings and opinions on any subject matter.

We will now all move along and enjoy the other topics being discussed.