Anderas wrote:I always think of "Mind Control" as All-Time-Highlight.
Keeping in mind that we wanted to do things to the mind points, I was now going through that list of spells there and voting for every single occasion the Mind Points play a role.
It was not sufficient, the other spells seem to be more interesting.
Goblin-King wrote:. . . Sure there can be offensive spells - just an emphasis on debuffing. The images I get from "Swamp magic" is being stuck, drowning, diseased, poisoned, being lost and confused. Not so much FIREBALLINTHEFACE BAM! . . .
Yeah, the debuffing aim of this spell list was encapsulated
early on in the development stage, so many spells are more physically based. Being poisoned, lost and confused at least suggest room for Mind Points. For a spell group more focused on Mind Points, I'd look to Cultist spells.
Anderas wrote:Here are the top ones, ordered by votes.
I count 27 spells (original and revision spells with one name were counted as one each.) To find the top choices, I wouldn't include those with 3 votes. That only cuts the least popular 12 spells, less than half. Instead, I'd focus the eligibility to 4-7 votes, counting just the better-liked 10 candidates.
Anderas wrote:As we are in a fighting vote here, let the spells fight with each other. If there are several aiming in the same direction, the one higher up in the list wins, the other goes.
I marked "Summon" Spells in red. Shaman and Necromancer both have one single summon spell, so let's have one single summon spell here, too.
So with this in mind, i remove "Snake Swarm".
A core spell set with redundancy isn't desirable, but not without precedent. The Necromancer set summons both Skeletons and a Mummy and creates a Skeleton. The Shaman spell set summons both Orcs and Goblins separately. Spells in an alternate list don't present redundancy issues as they can be picked through, but that isn't our consideration at this point. (I'm fine with no Snake Swarm, by the way.)
Anderas wrote:I marked the double noxious spores in blue - again it's safe to assume the lesser-voted for disappears.
Those spells with double letters are revisions of their matching original spells. The second versions are the ones that should be used; assent, not objections followed for newer versions in the two topic discussions. Counting spell versions separately splits their voting impact, so the votes for originals and their revised counterparts were combined in my count to reflect Inn members desire for the single spell concept.
Anderas wrote:Torpor and Creeping Snare seem to aim in the same direction, with one of them much more liked than the other - Torpor is out.
Tangling Vine and Cloud of Flies also aim in the same direction, Cloud of Flies has less votes.
I also see Tangling Vine and Slime aiming roughly in the same direction, so if there are no protests, I would also remove Slime in the same turn. Slime, as it only prevents movement, would be rarely used as far as I know my Zargons and Morcars.
Tangling Vine and Creeping Snare also go in the same direction. Wow, there are lots of ideas to remove defense, attack and movement from heroes.
I only have one objection in this lot: Cloud of Flies. First, this spell should be counted as1 spell with 6 votes as the two versions only contain a minor wording difference but function identically. Second, I'd say Cloud of Flies varies significantly from Tangling Vines: Cloud of Flies can affect more than one Hero's attack and defense, but only Tangling Vines can fully prevent one Hero from attacking or escaping the need to defend. It's the difference between focusing a debuff (a theme of this set) or spreading it over greater numbers.
Anderas wrote:The filter on the short list is done with our overall HQ25 policy in mind: We want Mind Point related effects, right?
Some would be good, but two or three should do, I think. Chaos spells with Mind Point rolls were set at 40%. I personally wouldn't want to sacrifice a good spell to exceed two spells with Mind Point rolls. Modification to include a Body Point roll might be okay.
Anderas wrote:So there are two direct damage spells: Insect Swarm and Rot/Putrification. Seeing we want to have MP involved, I would remove insect swarm even if it has more votes.
While I like the thematic feel of Insect Swarm, you have a good point about choosing Rot for the Mind Point roll. I switched my vote--now they are even at 4 votes each. Let's go with Rot instead. The wording needs some work. There's no need to mention undead and swamp creatures.
Anderas wrote:Then I would cast a chimera of the two spells Noxious Spores (which nearly reduces AT and DE to 0) and Pestilence (which has a less strong effect but an end condition on Mind Points) to be:
Pestilence Spores: Whenever the target figure attacks or defends, it must re-roll all combat dice once and take the worse of the two rolls. The victim rolls a red die at the start of his turns. The spell ends if he rolls under his current MP.
I'm afraid the poll has a poorly summarize entry for JJ, the Noxious Spores revision.
Checking the link, I just discovered Count Mohawk actually posted this:
Noxious Spores: This spell fills one room or hallway with hallucinogenic spores. Until the caster's next turn, whenever a Hero attacks or defends in that hallway, he must re-roll all Combat Dice once and take the worse of the two rolls.
While I had preferred Cloud of Flies for reasons already mentioned in this post, the true revision of Noxious Spores can affect more than one Hero as well. That means I'd be more willing to discard Cloud of Flies in favor of Count Mohawk's Noxious Spores, and by extension Pestilence Spores.
If you still want Pestilence Spores in, there are some points to discuss. First, I wouldn't use pestilence, a word for diseases. How about "Deluding Spores" which relates the Mind Points? Second, the Red Die roll is very tough on the Barbarian. I'd rather see the same spell-breaking chance as Chaos spells with MP rolls. Last, the combination of affecting a room and breaking with Mind Points makes this a tougher spell. Despite this, I prefer it over affecting only one Hero.
Deluding Spores . This spell spreads hallucinogenic spores that affect all Heroes in the same room as the spellcaster. When attacking or defending, victims must re-roll all Combat Dice and use the worse result. The spell can be ended at once or on a future turn by each victim rolling one red die for each of his Mind Points. If a 6 is rolled, that Hero is no longer affected. |
Anderas wrote:Finally I would remove Disease, as it is at the bottom of the list. . . .
Combining votes from both versions put it on my final list.
Anderas wrote:That would make this list of six swamp spells.
Summon Swamp Beast: Place a Swamp Beast (use Basilisk, Mv:4 At:4 De:6 BP:4 MP:4) in line of sight of the caster which may move and attack immediately.
Tangling Vines: One Hero may not move and rolls 1 less die to defend. The victim rolls one red die for each of his BP on future turns. If a 6 is rolled, the spell ends. The spell may also be ended by an adjacent Hero forfeiting his action.
Marsh Mists: One monster may move unseen through spaces that are occupied by Heroes the next time it moves.
Toxic Cloud: Place the Toxic Cloud tile within LoS of the caster. Any Hero or monster (not undead or swamp monsters) in the cloud at the start of their turn rolls a combat die. A victim misses his turn if anything but a white shield is rolled, while 1 BP is additionally lost if a black shield is rolled. The spell ends when the caster is killed.
Pestilence Spores: Whenever the target figure attacks or defends, it must re-roll all combat dice once and take the worse of the two rolls. The victim rolls a red die at the start of his turns. The spell ends if he rolls under his current MP.
Rot: Attacks one Hero with 1-3 dice, defend with dice = current MP. Doesn't affect undead or swamp monsters.
Daedalus wrote:. . . Currently, the voted core six Swamp spells are:
Summon Swamp Beast/Basilisk, Cloud of Flies, Tangling Vines, Insect Swarm, Disease, and Marsh Mists
We overlap on Summon Basilisk, Tangling Vines, Marsh Mists, and Rot (in place of Insect Swarm.) Pestilence/Deluding Spores needs some discussion, but I could support it. I favor Disease over Toxic Cloud because the former got 5 votes while the later got just 3 by my count.
Anderas wrote:Any remarks to that list? I am open for discussions, proposals, ideas. I am just a little less open to have too many cards.
Also the texts probably need some rewording, especially for Rot.
I agree there is a need for rewording. Be sure to check the spell links in the OP for fuller versions. Let's tackle final versions after we see what the draft cards look like.
There is something I wanted to mention related to another of your posts about wanting a unified NA-EU set. NA Spell Cards always have a Chaos Spell back. Some kind of icon or label will be needed on the text side to distinguish these spells as part of the Swamp set. Maybe a Fimir Shaman icon would do the trick.