HQ25 monster stats and abilities #3 the Minotaur

[knightkrawler]

I feel the NA Sleep spell spoils a 1 MP Minotaur, so I'd say a Minotaur should have at least 2 Mind Points to mitigate this very strong wild card.

That's exactly why I find the 1 MP minotaur so interesting...
Imagine the group strategizing in such a way that they want the wizard to take care of a heavy-hitting muscle monster like that.

[Daedalus]

The following is calculated without any ability: No counter strike no Attack Boost no nothing.

I assume that 2 Heroes can enter and attack spontaneusly, then up to 4 monsters strike back, then the full Hero Group gets engaged. No spells are being used.

The group has
4/5 (enters first)
3/5 (enters then)
---- here Morcar strikes back first time
4/5 (engages second round, so now 3 Heroes are fighting)
3/4 (Wizard stays back until someone dies)

The three numbers after the name are AT/DE/BP.

If the Minotaur is alone with a group like that:
Minotaur 555 1.5 BP
Minotaur 534 0.9 BP No need to talk about that one from my opinion.
Minotaur 555 2.8 BP with a defense of blue dice / white shields

In this case, it is better if the Minotaur blocks the way of the Heroes so the Beastmen can strike back. So that's the way i calculated. Normally it is better if the weak monsters block the way.


Minotaur 555 + 1 Beastman 322: 2.3 BP
Minotaur 555 + 2 Beastman 322: 3.4 BP
Minotaur 555 + 3 Beastman 322: 4.7 BP

Minotaur 555 White Shield defense + 1 Beastman 322: 4.2 BP
Minotaur 555 White Shield defense + 2 Beastman 322: 5.8 BP
Minotaur 555 White Shield defense + 3 Beastman 322: 7.7 BP

That is some useful insight. I wonder how 4 Attack Dice for Beastmen changes the numbers. Since this is one of the current Beastman front-runners, could you include slaying cost for 3x322 Beastmen with a Minotaur, as well? KISS works seamlessly in Hero Quest at the lower to mid Quest levels, so I'm considering going with no ability for both the Beastman and Minotaur.

You had mentioned in the Beastman thread that a Beastman counter-attack could easily double the monster's slaying cost. If a 555 Minotaur alone can be expected to average 1.5 BP of damage against the Heroes, does that mean 3.2 left over for 3 Beastmen with 3AD? If so, that would increase the Beastmen with a 3AD counter attack to a hefty 6.4 slaying cost. Add back the Minotaur, and the monster group has a very dangerous total of 7.9--ouch! That's equivalent to the tough, white-shield endboss-scenario. This may confirm a 2 AD counter-attack would be a better option for that ability choice, or a 3 AD Beastman counter-attack should be Quest Notes specific.

[Anderas]

it's not so easy...
an important function of the Beastmen is to keep heroes away from the Minotaur and vice versa; making the other in turn stronger... You see the same effect when you just add a goblin or a spear trap directly behind the door. It takes away an action from the incoming heroes, in return the Minotaur can attack more often, making him technically stronger.

In a fair duel 1:1 the counter attack makes the Beastman a lot stronger.
I think in a unfair duel (many heroes against one Beastman) i guess the counter attack adds even more: Normally he wouldn't come to fight at all. With the counter attack suddenly he has the opportunity to do damage.

However, in my simulation tool i can implement counter attacks and such quite easily, but only for 1:1 duels.
Mohawks Questimator can do complex situations, which is important to have correct results. But i don't know how to implement the abilities in there.

[Count Mohawk]

The extra damage for the counterattack ability is actually relatively easy to calculate. Assuming the Heroes attack in sequence using 4, 3, 4, 4, 3, 4 and so on Attack Dice, the Beastman has a 35.2% chance to be reduced to 1 BP left at some point. Therefore, he deals an extra 0.352 hits on average, which against the Hero team Anderas used (4/5, 3/5, 4/5, 3/4) is worth an average of 0.352 * 0.44 = 0.156 extra BP of damage. (A 422 Beastman deals an extra 0.264 BP of damage instead.) So a room with this many monsters would cause this much harm to the Heroes (based on Anderas's party of 4/5, 3/5, 4/5, 3/4):

	Minotaur Alone	Minotaur + 1 Beastman	Minotaur + 2 Beastmen	Minotaur + 3 Beastmen
Mino 555, Beast 322	1.5	2.5	3.7	5.2
Mino 555, Beast 422	1.5	3.1	5.2	7.7
Mino 534, Beast 322	0.9	1.6	2.7	3.9
Mino 534, Beast 422	0.9	2.2	3.9	6.0

The upshot of all this, of course, is that even against 2/2 Heroes, the counterattack ability of Beastmen is not quite equivalent to a free attack, and in fact scales down in probability the more powerful the Heroes are. (2-Atk Heroes get countered 70% of the time, 3-Atk Heroes get countered 49% of the time, and 4-Atk Heroes get countered 33% of the time.)

As for adding counters to the Questimator... it's certainly possible, but not a priority at the moment. I'll look into it later.

[Daedalus]

Mohawk, are your numbers based on an average of Heroes-attack-first and monsters-attack-first scenarios? I figure the best representation of a likely outcome in a Quest would lie somewhere between a Heroes-attack-first and an average.

Standard deviation is also worth thinking about, as Anderas had cited before in this thread. A variance of 2 is generally applicable for higher monsters, so using that inexact number a lone 555 Minotaur would dole out 0-3.5 damage. The same Minotaur with 3 Beastman buddies would hack and slash for 3.2-7.2 damage.

Concerning the 332 Beastman (poll winner) examples in your table, it appears a 555 Minotaur is worth about a 534 Minotaur and a Beastman together. Personally, I'd rather extend the threat range downward with the weaker 534 Minotaur and add in Beastmen from there. Isn't a 534 Minotaur a bit stronger than a Gargoyle?

Either way, Minotaur/Beastmen combinations are going to be stronger than what was seen in the comparable Kellar's Keep Quests. As that expansion is regarded as too easy by many, that shouldn't be a problem as long as Quests aren't overpopulated with the more powerful Minotaur/Beastman combo. However, if we treat Beastmen as the new grunt in the lasts Quests, there is a danger Quests may prove too difficult. That's why I changed my Beastman ability vote to a reduced 2-AD counter attack--I'd prefer to see them in numbers. If the Beastman counter attack remains at 3 AD, I feel an artifact will be all but necessary to help against them.

No one has commented against a 1 Mind Point Minotaur but I. Is anyone interested in a Mv:7 At:5 De:4 BP:5 MP:2 stat option?

[Count Mohawk]

Mohawk, are your numbers based on an average of Heroes-attack-first and monsters-attack-first scenarios? I figure the best representation of a likely outcome in a Quest would lie somewhere between a Heroes-attack-first and an average.

Standard deviation is also worth thinking about, as Anderas had cited before in this thread. A variance of 2 is generally applicable for higher monsters, so using that inexact number a lone 555 Minotaur would dole out 0-3.5 damage. The same Minotaur with 3 Beastman buddies would hack and slash for 3.2-7.2 damage.

The numbers in my previous post are based on Anderas's criteria: two Heroes attack first, then the monsters take a turn, then three Heroes and Zargon alternate taking turns until the monsters die. I usually assume that half of the Heroes playing the Quest get the first strike as a balance between the "phallic formation" tactic and the possibility of traps or furniture snarling the Heroes' plans.

I can't calculate the standard deviation of Beastmen with counters at the moment (which is why that ability is not yet featured in my Excel stuff), but without it the std. deviation of each room lies between 1.2 and 3.2, depending on the strength of each individual room.

One thing to note about standard deviation is that the end result of a whole Quest will vary by much less than that of a single room, as the variances in each individual room tend to cancel each other out. So while Verag's room in The Trial may have an avg. and st.dev closer together (9.3 and 3.5 respectively), the st. dev of the entire Quest is a smaller percentage of the average (23.7 and 5.6). Or more relevantly, if the avg. and st.dev of one room with a 555 Minotaur and three 322 Beastmen are 5.2 and 2.6, which is a damage range of 2.6-7.8, the avg. and st.dev of three such rooms are 15.6 and 4.5, which is a damage range of 11.1-20.1, not quite as wide.

If we treat Beastmen as the new grunt in the lasts Quests, there is a danger Quests may prove too difficult. That's why I changed my Beastman ability vote to a reduced 2-AD counter attack--I'd prefer to see them in numbers. If the Beastman counter attack remains at 3 AD, I feel an artifact will be all but necessary to help against them.

The difference between a 2-AD counter and a 3-AD counter, against high-level teams, cuts counter damage approximately in half, but is more incremental against lower-level teams - i.e., Not A Big Difference. Why not approach the argument from a different angle? Beastmen with any counter are more dangerous in close-combat quarters. The stronger the counter, the more we encourage Heroes to take them out with ranged weapons and magic spells. We probably don't need them to have a counter so strong that it will force the Heroes to re-evaluate their fighting style, especially if crossbows have not been purchased across the board yet. I'll be switching my vote in the other topic to a 2-die counter, conditional on the counter attack being a separate roll from the monster's Defense because if a Wizard is dumb enough to cast Fire of Wrath on an adjacent Beastman, I want him to suffer for that mistake.

No one has commented against a 1 Mind Point Minotaur but I. Is anyone interested in a Mv:7 At:5 De:4 BP:5 MP:2 stat option?

Using canon materials only, the only difference between a 1-MP Minotaur and a 2-MP Minotaur is the average duration of Sleep (6 turns vs 3 turns) and their susceptibility to Arrows of the Night (the 2-MP version takes slightly less damage). Absent some new Mind-affecting Spell Scrolls, Sleep is available a maximum of twice per Quest (if it gets Spell Ring'd). Personally, I like them at 2 MP but would not be completely put out by a 1 MP variation. I confess I'm a little more uncomfortable with the Minotaur having 5 Body Points though, as that all but requires most post-Minotaur bosses to have 5 or 6 BP at minimum to keep up. That can get out of hand quickly with guards in the picture - and everyone knows the worth of any good Chaos Sorcerer is measured in the quality of his guards. The maximum stat line I would be OK with for the Minotaur is 544.

(Think about the Frozen Horror for a second: How many Chaos Sorcerers appear in that Quest Pack? None - and with the sheer power of the Warbears and Yetis, they'd be redundant at best.)

Also, let's talk ability for a second: It looks like the 10-square rage charge is currently the leader. Anybody want to try to change my mind to a different option, or are we good on that front?

[Sotiris]

I'm sorry, i haven't read all the previous posts nor voted yet because i had an idea today about the minotaurs.
In the greek mythology the minotaur (Μινώταυρος=the bull of Minos) was a monster of human body and bull head wandering into the Labyrinth, a huge maze designed by Deadalus for Minos, the king of Crete. As the cards below showing something similar to minotaur i suggest the following stats & skill:

BODY	MIND	ATTACK	DEFENSE	MOVEMENT	SPECIAL
3	2	4	3	7	Place this figure on the board only when it is your turn to play.

[Anderas]

Sotiris, your Mino 433 is a bit weak

@Daedalus:
The tendendy is that more attack dice spread the variance further, whereas more Body Points reduce it compared to the total damage. If you want to have reliable monsters in best case you use AT-DE-BP 1-1-30

I like Mino 555 a lot because even with a endgame group of heroes buffed by wizard and potions, it is still not an ignorable thing. Add some Beastmen and it is really a serious threat.

Mino 534 also is interesting, as the forum was voting for the weaker Beastmen, leaving a gap in the middle that Mino 534 could very well fill. Add a second and the serious threat is back.

[cynthialee]

I'm sorry, i haven't read all the previous posts nor voted yet because i had an idea today about the minotaurs.
In the greek mythology the minotaur (Μινώταυρος=the bull of Minos) was a monster of human body and bull head wandering into the Labyrinth, a huge maze designed by Deadalus for Minos, the king of Crete. As the cards below showing something similar to minotaur i suggest the following stats & skill:

BODY	MIND	ATTACK	DEFENSE	MOVEMENT	SPECIAL
3	2	4	3	7	Place this figure on the board only when it is your turn to play.

For "The Minotaur" this monster is much too weak.

The Minotaur (as opposed to a minotaur) will be the only monster in a dungeon. This monster is top tier monster material. It should be unstoppable and un-killable unless a party of very well equipped heroes encounter the beast.

I keep coming up with different ideas but this would work:
Movement: 8
Attack: 8
Defend: 6 {Defends on all Shields}
Body: 6
Mind: N/A (this monsters mind is so foreign to the minds of heroes that no mind effecting spell will be effective against The Minotaur.
Special: Immune to normal weapons. May roar once per quest at a hero. This roar will have the same effect as a fear spell.

[Daedalus]

I added a stat option and an ability option:

h) Mv:6 At:5 De:4 BP:4 MP:2
H) Large Monster : adjacent and diagonal attack

Count Mohawk, Anderas’ scenario with your numbers look like good representations. The overall Quest deviation is also reassuring.

I don’t mind Heroes adjusting to ranged tactics against Beastmen so much, as I hope the confined spaces of the board will at least partIaIly limit this effect. What I wouldn’t want would be excessive door-guarding, especially combined with ranged or diagonal attacks. That’s why I want the Minotaur to have a diagonal attack. It could either double-down with another monster on a door blocker from a diagonal space, or it could step into the doorway and attack a diagonally attacking Hero.

SotIris, that ambush placement is a nice idea for a unique Minotaur. Cynthialee’s bumped stats would combine well with it, I think, though personally I’d tone some stats down a bit to allow for more Quest monsters.