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HQ25 monster stats and abilities #3 the Minotaur

Brainstorming topics for the HeroQuest 25th Anniversary Quest Pack.

The Minotaur

What stats do you want for the Minotaur?
0
No votes
a) Mv:6 At:5 De:5 BP:3 MP:2
1
5%
b) Mv:6 At:5 De:5 BP:5 MP:1
5
23%
c) Mv:6 At:4 De:3 BP:2 MP:3
0
No votes
d) Mv:7 At:4 De:4 BP:4 MP:3
0
No votes
e) Mv:6 At:3+2 De:3 BP:4 MP:2
0
No votes
f) Mv:6 At:5 De:3 BP:4 MP:2
3
14%
g) Mv:5 At:5 De:4 BP:4 MP:2
1
5%
h) Mv:6 At:5 De:4 BP:4 MP:2
0
No votes
i)
0
No votes
j)
0
No votes
k)
0
No votes
What ability do you want for the Minotaur?
0
No votes
A) Rage Attack: may attack after movement of up to 10 squares if the opponent is in Line of Sight at the beginning of its turn.
2
9%
B) Goring Charge: If it moves at least 3 squares without going over the same square twice, it attacks with 6AD.
3
14%
C) Charge: If a hero started the turn 3 or more spaces away from the Minotaur he gets +2 attack dice when attacking that hero.
0
No votes
D) Large Monster: Can attack any diagonal or adjacent square. Two attacks can be made against 1 or 2 opponents, but Hero defends once only.
1
5%
E) Charge: If there are no heroes within 3 squares at the beginning of the minotaur's turn he rolls 2 extra combat dice in an attack.
0
No votes
F) Instead of attacking normally, a Minotaur may attack two separate Heroes with three Combat Dice each.
0
No votes
G) double attack skulls if first move 4 or more squares
0
No votes
H) Large Monster: adjacent and diagonal attack
4
18%
I)
0
No votes
J)
0
No votes
K) No ability: It's good enough as statted.
2
9%
 
Total votes : 22

Re: HQ25 monster stats and abilities #3 the Minotaur

Postby Daedalus » Friday October 30th, 2015 1:34am

The Beastmen/Chaos Dwarf chapter of the HQ25 story arc was tentatively set for Quests 12-15, or alternatively for Quests 9-13. I think that's a little early for what we want for the Beastman and Minotaur, as designers would need to be restrictive in their numbers for Heroes with 3-4 Attack Dice and 4-5 Defend Dice. I'd suggest switching with the undead story arc which follows with Quests 16-19. Otherwise, we should consider powering down these brutes. I also think two 5AD Minotaur figures will be sufficient at HQ25 power levels, which won't exceed Kellar's Keep. An incedental bonus of 2 Minotaur figures is it saves cash.

I voted for f) Mv:6 At:5 De:3 BP:4 MP:2 and F) Instead of attacking normally, a Minotaur may attack two separate Heroes with three Combat Dice each. I'd prefer the ability to be a bit stronger so that overall Minotaur damage would be more equal against 1 or 2 Heroes. In comparison to a 3/3 Attack combination, it appears a Minotaur will do an extra 1 BP of damage every other round against a single Hero using 5 AD. That limits a 3/3 attack ability's usefulness against Heroes with more than 1 or 2 Body Points, as it would always be better to default to 5 AD if a kill isn't possible. So how about this for a modified ability which should better equal a single attack of 5 AD:

Instead of attacking normally, a Minotaur may attack one Hero with 3 Attack Dice and another Hero with 4 Attack Dice.

Two attacks can match nicely for Minotaur figures holding 2 different weapons which are often dissimilar. Even one-weapon figures could work as the Minotaur switches to a 1-handed attack and a horn gore. In my opinion, a single 5 AD or dual 3/4 AD amply convey the power of a large beast.

On the subject of size, I think the Minotaur will need a 1 1/2 (Forgotten Horror) to 2 square base and should be considered a large monster. I'd suggest the Minotaur adopt the large-monster rule from the EQP and BQP for continuity, which would allow the Minotaur to attack diagonally.
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Re: HQ25 monster stats and abilities #3 the Minotaur

Postby knightkrawler » Friday October 30th, 2015 9:55am

I think it's easier and makes more sense to switch storylines rather than prying new inappropriated stats onto the two brute animal monsters.
The Chaos Dwarfs are gonna be tanks, too, with at least 4 DD judging from any set of figures available, balancing out the offensive Beasts.
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Re: HQ25 monster stats and abilities #3 the Minotaur

Postby cynthialee » Friday October 30th, 2015 12:10pm

I never liked the idea of minotaur as a species. The only precedent for them is in fantasy war games and RPG. There is no mythic/legendary history here.
Now with other monsters that have been crafted from whole cloth in the last 40 years, I am cool with just doing as you will and making it up as you go. The Minotaur is the result of Poseidon's wrath over a bogus sacrifice. The child of Pasiphae and the Cretan Bull this beast was virtually undefeatable.
Just don't like the idea of taking liberties with a personage from mythology. It can muddy the historical record in the long run.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
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Re: HQ25 monster stats and abilities #3 the Minotaur

Postby Anderas » Friday October 30th, 2015 4:37pm

You're right, modern fantasy puts a lot of noise on the historical fantasy. I am absolutely with you on that point. I hate it every time I type vampire in Google and i find non blood drinking vampires who live entirely normal with their teeny girlfriends, or I type zombie and find iZombie where an attractive zombiewoman lives entirely normal among normal people... or I type something Greek and find 1000 things but not the myth.

Why not having the Minotaur (only beatable by Hephaistos' Sword) and his foul offspring: demons, engineered by evil wizards to try and come close to the great Monster, but they never reach the original as they of course use the wrong powers (chaos), are not strong enough, use the wrong recipe and so on.But: this new monster can reproduce and therefore constantly denies to disappear from the world's face.


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Re: HQ25 monster stats and abilities #3 the Minotaur

Postby knightkrawler » Friday October 30th, 2015 5:18pm

As I've mentioned before: the monster race doesn't even have to be called minotaur.
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Re: HQ25 monster stats and abilities #3 the Minotaur

Postby cynthialee » Friday October 30th, 2015 5:31pm

They are a type of 'Gor.
I can get behind that.

For mythical monsters perhaps there should be two cards. Card one is the basic monster for normal adventures, card two would be the jacked up version from mythology.

A minotaur is a powerful monster, but The Minotaur is almost a demi-god in power level.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
~Sun Tsu The art of War~


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Re: HQ25 monster stats and abilities #3 the Minotaur

Postby cynthialee » Friday October 30th, 2015 6:22pm

Basic Monster Concept
Move 8
Attack 5 (Battle Ax)
Defend 5
Body 3
Mind N/A (these creatures minds are so alien to men and elves that no mind effecting spells will work on them)
Special: Large Monster, may attack adjacent and diagonal targets in melee.
Special: Sweeping Blow on 2 squares with a single 5 dice roll. Both targets may defend against the blow as normal.
Special: Boss Minotaur's defend on White Shields. Champions defend on all shields.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
~Sun Tsu The art of War~


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Re: HQ25 monster stats and abilities #3 the Minotaur

Postby cynthialee » Friday October 30th, 2015 6:33pm

Zombie-Taur
This zombie is the remains of a minotaur who fell to a zombie pack.
Move 6
Attack 5 (battle ax) or 3 disarmed
Defend 3
Body 2
Mind 0
No special, but it will eat your brains if given the chance.

Lichataur
This Lich was once a Minotaur
Move 4
Attack 3 (Icy touch inflicts 1 Body Point per round for d6 turns.)
Defend 6
Body 5
Mind N/A (not effected by mind effecting spells)
Special: Spell Caster. May have all the Ork Shaman Spells, in place of ork, insert Minotaur. May have up to 6 of the Chaos spells in addition to the Shaman Spells.

Microtaur
This tiny minotaur is about 2 feet tall. Like the Chihuahua this tiny monster thinks he is much tougher than he actually is and will be relentless in his attacks.
Move 8
Attack 1
Defend 1
Body 1
Mind N/A
Nothing special.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
~Sun Tsu The art of War~


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Re: HQ25 monster stats and abilities #3 the Minotaur

Postby Daedalus » Saturday October 31st, 2015 1:07am

knightkrawler wrote:I think it's easier and makes more sense to switch storylines rather than prying new inappropriated stats onto the two brute animal monsters.
The Chaos Dwarfs are gonna be tanks, too, with at least 4 DD judging from any set of figures available, balancing out the offensive Beasts.

Upping the ante with a more powerful set of monsters appears to be the popular choice. As Hero Quest can develop problems when it gets too easy for tooled-up Heroes, I can understand why. The current leading Minotaur is equivalent to an Ogre Champion, but with an extra Body Point and an ability to boot. Since that's quite a jump in power, Quest makers would need to be aware of just how dangerous such a Minotaur would be when supported with some grunts. I wonder how much damage a Minotaur and 3 Beastmen should be expected to do against a mix of 3AD/5DD and 4AD/5DD Heroes in Quests 16-19. Shouldn't it be a lot? How about the 3DD 4BP Minotaur with 3 Beastmen? We might need an artifact to address the Beastman threat. Then again, crossbows change the game quite a bit. I may need to rethink my ability choice.

On the subject of crossbows, if a tank blocks the doorway of a standard room, other Heroes are free to snipe the monsters like shooting fish in a barrel--not fun. As a large monster, the Minotaur should get a diagonal attack to prevent this. The Large monster rule of the EQP and BQP is found in the introductory section--we should do the same with HQ25.

The vulnerability of a Minotaur (or Beastman) to a Sleep spell makes a big difference. The EU version works kind of like a super Tempest spell against a low MP Minotaur, probably removing it from combat until the other monsters are dealt with. Also, the first attack against it isn't defended. However, NA version of this spell is even more powerful as a sleeping monster doesn't wake if it is attacked. This almost guarantees a 1 MP Minotaur is neutralized and will necessitate "shield" monsters. This is a kind of design restriction.

We've agreed on a US combat default for Quest design, but we need to compromise on spells, as both editions will be used. I feel the NA Sleep spell spoils a 1 MP Minotaur, so I'd say a Minotaur should have at least 2 Mind Points to mitigate this very strong wild card.
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Re: HQ25 monster stats and abilities #3 the Minotaur

Postby Anderas » Saturday October 31st, 2015 2:17am

The following is calculated without any ability: No counter strike no Attack Boost no nothing.

I assume that 2 Heroes can enter and attack spontaneusly, then up to 4 monsters strike back, then the full Hero Group gets engaged. No spells are being used.

The group has
4/5 (enters first)
3/5 (enters then)
---- here Morcar strikes back first time
4/5 (engages second round, so now 3 Heroes are fighting)
3/4 (Wizard stays back until someone dies)

The three numbers after the name are AT/DE/BP.

If the Minotaur is alone with a group like that:
Minotaur 555 1.5 BP
Minotaur 534 0.9 BP No need to talk about that one from my opinion.
Minotaur 555 2.8 BP with a defense of blue dice / white shields

In this case, it is better if the Minotaur blocks the way of the Heroes so the Beastmen can strike back. So that's the way i calculated. Normally it is better if the weak monsters block the way.


Minotaur 555 + 1 Beastman 322: 2.3 BP
Minotaur 555 + 2 Beastman 322: 3.4 BP
Minotaur 555 + 3 Beastman 322: 4.7 BP

Minotaur 555 White Shield defense + 1 Beastman 322: 4.2 BP
Minotaur 555 White Shield defense + 2 Beastman 322: 5.8 BP
Minotaur 555 White Shield defense + 3 Beastman 322: 7.7 BP


For comparison:

The entire quest "Rescue of Sir Ragnar" takes 8 BP and is generally rated "easy".
The entire quest "Lair of the Orc Warlord" takes 15 BP. That would be this Boss Minotaur plus some rooms of pre-fighting.
The entire quest "The Trial" takes 29 BP and is perceived "hard" (not only because it takes 29 BP but also because no-one has a potion of healings/heroic brews at that stage - that'd change a lot.)

My opinion: The Minoaur 555 with White Shields is the perfect Boss Monster (having an entourage); strong but calculably so.
Minotaur 555 without white shields is good for normal monsters, and both are too weak to be "THE MINOTAUR".


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