5. HQ25 - Spells, tiles, mechanics and misc

[Teldurn]

I also really like the Acid Rain card from Sjeng's existing Fimir deck.

[Goblin-King]

Is it possible to rewrite the spell card without referencing the trap?

If we decide to go with my suggestion of a separate Special Rules page, it won't be necessary to rewrite it.

While showering IS the best way to think, I don't quite see why you would want to move a special rule for a single quest to the beginning of the book.
I mean... if you are running out of space you are probably putting in too many quest notes anyways

Stuff in the beginning of the book should only be for things that are general throughout the entire book.
Like if(/when ) we put in KK's new slough trap, that trap will be a part of the pack through all the quests. You'll meet that trap again and again.

But if all goblins defend by rolling white shields (or what ever) in a single quest, it doesn't make sense to put in a line saying you have to look up the rules for this quest on another page.
The rule should just be on the same page for easy referencing.

Is it possible to rewrite the spell card without referencing the trap?

Yes.

Then do it smart ass!

[Teldurn]

Good point. I concede.

Well played, sir.

[Gold Bearer]

I also really like the Acid Rain card from Sjeng's existing Fimir deck.

I think we should use all of them and use these to expand the deck. That's kind of what was suggested from the beginning. I also think we should keep the fimir art, it looks really good. We just need to rename it. That's eighteen spells, and possibly more to come.

I don't like the way all the spells are decided in the US quests. I like the idea of a certain amount of random spells for enemies. Of course this is up to the individual quest maker to decide, but as a general rule kobolds could have determined spells and fimirs could have random ones, or the other way round, otherwise there's not really any sense in creating a separate deck, as has already been pointed out.

Is it possible to rewrite the spell card without referencing the trap?

Yes.

Then do it smart ass!

It's not my spell.

[Goblin-King]

I also think we should keep the fimir art, it looks really good.

It's not really a matter of what looks good but rather a matter of using artists' works without permission.
Hero Quest is an unsupported, dead game which is why I can accept that we recycle components from it. Logos, layouts, etc...
But using current, active artists' works is a whole other deal. Stealing art is not okay, even if it's non-profit.

****************

If you want to designate random spells in your quests feel free to do so. I don't think there is a need to make new rules for this.
That's the beauty of HeroQuest, with very few components and quest-notes you can make a myriad of different quests with very different flavors.

Not sure about the amount of cards in the deck... 18+ sounds like a LOT for a single deck.
I'd prefer fewer but more distinct spells.

[knightkrawler]

Is it possible to rewrite the spell card without referencing the trap?

If we decide to go with my suggestion of a separate Special Rules page, it won't be necessary to rewrite it.

While showering IS the best way to think, I don't quite see why you would want to move a special rule for a single quest to the beginning of the book.
I mean... if you are running out of space you are probably putting in too many quest notes anyways

Stuff in the beginning of the book should only be for things that are general throughout the entire book.
Like if(/when ) we put in KK's new slough trap, that trap will be a part of the pack through all the quests. You'll meet that trap again and again.

But if all goblins defend by rolling white shields (or what ever) in a single quest, it doesn't make sense to put in a line saying you have to look up the rules for this quest on another page.
The rule should just be on the same page for easy referencing.

Is it possible to rewrite the spell card without referencing the trap?

Yes.

Then do it smart ass!

I concur.
New rules applied to all quests get an entry in the rule-and-quest book after the NA expansion model. That includes traps and new monster stats.
Special rules for specific quests are described in the notes of that quest. That includes "NPC" stats and special mechanics you want to write up. The revolving room from RotWL springs to mind as an example.

And no, rewriting the Slough spell card without referencing the trap rule would result in a ridiculously small fonted wall of text. The EWP should be able to lay the trap rules out for the players who'll quickly learn.

We could also make a reference card analogous to the Magic Reference Card from Wizards of Morcar.

As for the number of cards:
The card deck in Wizards of Morcar had 64 cards! That's as much as the EU game system had. I have no problem with that amount, though I don't consider it necessary.
5 pieces of equipment (if we follow my suggestions - could be more, could be less), 4 artefacts, 6 Swamp spells... I don't think the number of cards is gonna be a problem as it stands now. That's not a threat in my opinion.

[Teldurn]

I also think we should keep the fimir art, it looks really good.

It's not really a matter of what looks good but rather a matter of using artists' works without permission.
Hero Quest is an unsupported, dead game which is why I can accept that we recycle components from it. Logos, layouts, etc...
But using current, active artists' works is a whole other deal. Stealing art is not okay, even if it's non-profit.

Agree, but frankly my ideal dream (which is probably unlikely) is to have artists here at the Inn do all new art from top to bottom for the whole thing. (preferably just <EDIT:> a single artist or two max Goblin-King </edit>, to keep the look-and-feel consistent throughout)

If you want to designate random spells in your quests feel free to do so. I don't think there is a need to make new rules for this.
That's the beauty of HeroQuest, with very few components and quest-notes you can make a myriad of different quests with very different flavors.

Not sure about the amount of cards in the deck... 18+ sounds like a LOT for a single deck.
I'd prefer fewer but more distinct spells.

IINM, the base Game System has 12 Chaos spells in the deck, and it didn't use all of them in the whole quest book. But since almost all of the spells we just came up with in the last two days are equally fantastic, I propose a simple way to streamline the bloat of having too many Swamp Spells. Categorize the spells we come up with plus the Fimir deck already available into one of three categories: Direct Attack, Debuff, or Support.

Direct Attack - pretty clear. If the spell directly does damage, it goes here.
Debuff - things like immobilizing, reducing attack or defense dice, or anything else that hampers a Hero, goes here.
Support - spells that either summon new monsters or buff up monsters goes here.

Once we have categorized spells, we can see which one has too many and reduce from there. Maybe aim to have 3 in each category. Voila, streamlined and reduced the deck to a manageable number!

EDIT: Or change it up to be 2 Direct attack and 4 debuff, to give more of a swampy flavor.

[Goblin-King]

Some comments on the spell suggestions so far.

Slough - I'd still prefer a rewrite to make it independent and self-contained. But well... Players are assumed to have read the rules for the slough trap.
A good design choice would be to have the players encounter the trap a couple of times before giving anyone this spell!!!
This spell may be cast on any one hero.
The square that hero is currently occupying
suddenly turns into a slough slowly pulling the hero under.
He must try to climb out of the slough according
to the Slough trap rules.

Cloud Of Flies - The "swamp based" characters distinction is a little weak. Card should mention specific monsters or just affect all heroes. Or anything BUT the caster. Remove this distinction from all cards.
There's some overlap with the the Fever spell. I suggest making it just affect attack.
The room or corridor occupied by the caster fills
with thousands of tiny biting flies until the beginning
of the casters next turn. Any non swamp/marsh/bog
based characters or monsters attack and defend with
one dice less than usual.

Swamp Beast - As we don't have a swamp beast I suggest using something we DO have. Summon basilisk instead. Fits pretty good. Or perhaps go for "drowned corpses and summon some zombies!
Caster summons a swamp beast and places it on any
square in sight. Use the gargoyle model if there's
nothing else. The Swamp Beast acts as an ordinary
monster starting from this round and has the following
stats: Attack: 4, Defence: 6, Movement: 4, Body: 4, Mind: 1.

Rot/Putrifaction - No defense?!?! Seems OP
Causes D3 body points of damage on a directly adjacent target.
Doesn't affect swamp/marsh/bog creatures.

Insect Swarm - Isn't basic defense always 2 dice? Just write that the target may roll 2 dice in defense.
Attacks a target in sight with three combat dice. The target
ignores any defence improvements for armour.
Doesn't affect swamp/marsh/bog creatures.

Disease No objections
A target in sight is infected with a putrid disease and rolls a
combat dice immediately and at the start of each of their turns.
On a black shield the target suffers one body point of damage
and on a white shield the spell wears off.
Doesn't affect swamp/marsh/bog creatures.

Fever - Perfect in all it's glory!
This spell will inflict a terrible fever upon a player.
He rolls one less defense die against all attacks.
The victim may try to recover by rolling a defense die at
the start of each of his turns.
If he rolls a shield he returns to normal.

Bog Plague - This is a player killer. One failed roll and it's basically bye bye! Either nerf, change or just remove.
This spell may be cast on any one Hero, causing him to
immediately begin oozing pus and slime from his eyes,
nose, and mouth, making the Hero unable to attack
or defend himself. The spell can be broken by the Hero
on a future turn by rolling one red die for each of his
Mind Points. If a 6 is rolled, the spell is broken.

Noxious Spores - We already have a few spells affecting dice rolls. Should this be some sort of mind control effect instead?
This spell causes wild hallucinations upon the victim.
Unable to distinguish between reality and the effects of
the spores the victim is forced to re-roll any successful
combat dice within that room or passageway.

Will-'O-Whisp - How about just adding 2 defense dice rather than applying two rules on one spell?
Gaseous balls of energy float around, sparking maliciously.
The caster may use this spell on themselves or another friendly player.
Whilst in play the effects allow the player 1 extra defence dice and
to re-roll 1 failed defence dice once per turn. As soon as a wound is
taken by that player the spell is broken.

Also I like

Acid Rain
and
Slime
From Fimir Spell deck.

[Gold Bearer]

I also think we should keep the fimir art, it looks really good.

It's not really a matter of what looks good but rather a matter of using artists' works without permission.
Hero Quest is an unsupported, dead game which is why I can accept that we recycle components from it. Logos, layouts, etc...
But using current, active artists' works is a whole other deal. Stealing art is not okay, even if it's non-profit.

Of course. I thought it was done by someone on the site and we could use it with permission. I never suggested we steal anyones work so don't make a presumption before you make an accusation, and I certainly don't need you to tell me what is or isn't okay. I'm not sure what your problem is and I've tried to be patient with you but you're really start to push it now.

If you want to designate random spells in your quests feel free to do so. I don't think there is a need to make new rules for this.
That's the beauty of HeroQuest, with very few components and quest-notes you can make a myriad of different quests with very different flavors.

I wasn't really suggesting it as a rule. I thought I was quite clear that it's at the digression of the quest designer. I just thought that if one generally had determined spells and the other type generally had random ones (and there's no reason why one or more couldn't have both) then it would a bit more distinction to two new types of magicians that are sharing spell.

Not sure about the amount of cards in the deck... 18+ sounds like a LOT for a single deck.
I'd prefer fewer but more distinct spells.

For one thing I don't think a largish number of new spells is a problem, just the opposite if they're all decent spells, and secondly it was a list of possible spells and the eight from the fimir deck makes eighteen. I wasn't saying that we have eighteen confirmed spells, we're still just brainstorming. Must I clarify everything I say from now on in this much detail so you get it? It's tedious!

And no, rewriting the Slough spell card without referencing the trap rule would result in a ridiculously small fonted wall of text. The EWP should be able to lay the trap rules out for the players who'll quickly learn.

We could also make a reference card analogous to the Magic Reference Card from Wizards of Morcar.

I agree. There's no reason to rewrite the rules for a trap that's going to be used in multiple quests on the spell card. But it is possible.

As for the number of cards:
The card deck in Wizards of Morcar had 64 cards! That's as much as the EU game system had.

Those spells were split though, there were only three or six in each set. How many chaos spells are there in total (we can easily include a list of the newer ones for people who only have the base set, in fact we're going to have to relist all the chaos spells we're using anyway because they're only in the US version)? Maybe we should match that number. It would be tidy and give us the freedom to include the spell we want instead of being restricted to a small number.

I have no problem with that amount, though I don't consider it necessary.
5 pieces of equipment (if we follow my suggestions - could be more, could be less), 4 artefacts, 6 Swamp spells... I don't think the number of cards is gonna be a problem as it stands now. That's not a threat in my opinion.

Bow, Halberd, Great Sword, Great Axe and Bastard Sword is so much simpler. Your ones have special rules like weapon range and affect different monsters differently, that should just be for artefacts, not standard equipment.

IINM, the base Game System has 12 Chaos spells in the deck, and it didn't use all of them in the whole quest book. But since almost all of the spells we just came up with in the last two days are equally fantastic, I propose a simple way to streamline the bloat of having too many Swamp Spells. Categorize the spells we come up with plus the Fimir deck already available into one of three categories: Direct Attack, Debuff, or Support.

Direct Attack - pretty clear. If the spell directly does damage, it goes here.
Debuff - things like immobilizing, reducing attack or defense dice, or anything else that hampers a Hero, goes here.
Support - spells that either summon new monsters or buff up monsters goes here.

Once we have categorized spells, we can see which one has too many and reduce from there. Maybe aim to have 3 in each category. Voila, streamlined and reduced the deck to a manageable number!

EDIT: Or change it up to be 2 Direct attack and 4 debuff, to give more of a swampy flavor.

I see where you're coming from but I don't think it's necessary to restrict ourselves like that. Why should there be a certain number of each type? Why is the number of spells we have now in any way unmanageable? Why should we make a consciousness decision to limit ourselves for no reason? The most important thing is that the spells are interesting, the right flavour, that they work well and that they're distinct from each other.

Cloud Of Flies - The "swamp based" characters distinction is a little weak. Card should mention specific monsters or just affect all heroes. Or anything BUT the caster. Remove this distinction from all cards.

It's in case the reflection spell goes in, sir.

There's some overlap with the the Fever spell. I suggest making it just affect attack.

I suggest in addition to changing your attitude you change your fever spell as it overlaps with the previously proposed cloud of flies spell.

Swamp Beast - As we don't have a swamp beast I suggest using something we DO have. Summon basilisk instead. Fits pretty good. Or perhaps go for "drowned corpses and summon some zombies!

Or we could have a swamp beast. It fits with the theme and it would be nice to have an original(ish) monster.

Rot/Putrifaction - No defense?!?! Seems OP

I agree, it should be defendable.

Insect Swarm - Isn't basic defense always 2 dice? Just write that the target may roll 2 dice in defense.

Depends on what happens with the reduced equipment at the start idea. It's also good to make it clear why the target rolls two (if that's what we decide is standard for all the heroes) defence dice.

Disease No objections

[Goblin-King]

It's not really a matter of what looks good but rather a matter of using artists' works without permission.
Hero Quest is an unsupported, dead game which is why I can accept that we recycle components from it. Logos, layouts, etc...
But using current, active artists' works is a whole other deal. Stealing art is not okay, even if it's non-profit.

This is my view on why I think we should use art made specifically for this pack. It is my personal opinion.
I was by no means trying to accuse you of stealing, simply stating that using other artists' art is the same as theft.
If you took this the wrong way I apologize.

I not sure what your problem is and I've tried to be patient with you but you're really start to push it now.

Look... I'm not actively trying to piss you off.
You throw in a lot of ideas, you must expect to get a lot of feedback. Including negative feedback.
I comment honestly. If I think an idea is good I say so. If I think it's bad (or don't fit in) I also say so and try and explain why.
I don't just shut up so we won't have to disagree... But please don't take this as personal attacks!
(I do know I can be very vocal and "straight to business", though...!)

Obviously we have quite different opinions on how this should be done and the general scale of the project...
And of course we'll both try and get things the way we both think is the best. That's the nature of a project such as this.
We post ideas, comment on them and modify them. If enough members agree on something, that's the way it's done.
You win some you loose some... And that is all okay.

Peace?