THE CRYPT OF PERPETUAL DARKNESS discussion

[Kurgan]

SPOILERS:

List of Artifact Locations for this quest book:

Quest 1: Ring of Return (repeat from GS)
Quest 1: Magical Throwing Dagger (repeat from KK/ROTWL)
Quest 4: 2 Random Spell Scrolls (could include Lightning Bolt or Tempest but presumably any from the Mythic tier decks should be used to draw from*)
Quest 6: Spell Scroll: Lightning Bolt (also exists in Prophecy of Telor but there was no physical card)
Quest 6: Spell Scroll: Tempest (repeat from KK)
Quest 8: Dragon Spear
Quest 9: Crown of Shadows
* this would mean 14 total cards including: Courage (2x), Fire of Wrath (2x), Ball of Flame (2x), Heal Body (2x), Tempest, Rock Skin, Pass Through Rock, Genie and Sleep. There is no actual card for Lightning Bolt but you could substitute any one generic artifact to stand in for this ability when doing the "random draw."


SPOILERS

Prophecy of Telor Artifact Locations
Spirit Queen's Torment Artifact Locations
Crypt of Perpetual Darkness Artifact Locations

More potential Spoilers..
While not Artifacts, those who are wondering what other assets (beyond what's in the Game System) are called for in CoPD, I found references to:

Potion of Dexterity (KK/ROTWL; appears in modified form in ROTDM Alchemy deck)
Potion of Restoration (KK/ROTWL - at least this one is explained in the notes, so the card is not necessary; appears in modified form in ROTDM Alchemy deck)

Tiles: Short Stairway, Long Stairway, Cliff Corridor (all from KK; these are aesthetic decoration)

/end SPOILERS.

Is it my imagination or do the "Grasping Vine Traps" and "Dread Skull" tiles never actually get used in this pack? Are they just intended to be inserted by Zargon as he wishes? I see that the Tavern tile is only used once (and the Temple on the reverse side only once) and the Acid Traps appear in one quest (their use is explained in detail in that particular quest).

The unique CoPD tiles having the same image on both sides I guess makes them easier to pick out from an (ever growing) pile of tiles when it's time to put things back into their respective boxes. Too bad this one isn't slated to come to retail. If it did they could follow the pattern of the last two maybe making the dice and monsters transparent purple, blue (a different shade than Frozen Horror's combat dice) or red... The Dragon could remain gray or be transparent (people love transparent dragons! transparent "smoky gray?"). There would be 11 cards (5 Artifacts, 6 Equipment) but they could also throw in additional Spell Scrolls (to make the "random draw" a little better than just drawing from a "stack" of 3 cards... for reference KK calls for "random" spell scroll draws and had 8 scrolls, FH did as well and included 6 scrolls... so probably they would want to throw in a minimum of 3 more scrolls.. maybe Courage, Heal Body and Ball of Flame?). The Tavern/Temple tile is BIG but it is still just the right size to fit inside a KK/ROTWL sized box (and the second tile sheet would include the other single square bits, probably with less wasted space). The retail versions of SQT & PoT won't include the fancy Entrance/Exit doors from KK/ROTWL despite them being called for (not explicitly, you could always re-use a regular closed door for these if you didn't have any other expansion boxes with these special doors) so I would expect the same if they did re-release this (or maybe they'd fix it and give us a bunch more doors?).

Of course they said this won't be coming out, but I'm just saying...

[SirRick]

I feel like I missed something. I keep reading here that there are no plans for a retail release of CoPD. What exactly is the reason for this? Was it some ambiguous reason, or was it mentioned in an interview or something?

I feel if they don’t release it Avalon Hill will just release its own quest pack which will also feature the same dragon miniature and other assets they can reuse from CoPD.

[TechnoBiologist]

I feel like I missed something. I keep reading here that there are no plans for a retail release of CoPD. What exactly is the reason for this? Was it some ambiguous reason, or was it mentioned in an interview or something?

I feel if they don’t release it Avalon Hill will just release its own quest pack which will also feature the same dragon miniature and other assets they can reuse from CoPD.

Does somebody here has an answer for this? I also wonderer why?

[Vorimir]

Joe Manganiello is the designer and owner of the mission pack so AH needs to reach an agreement before piblishing it and it seems unlikely right now (money issues probably).

[Kurgan]

Okay my comments above were completely wrong... it first APPEARS that the three new tiles in Joe's quest book have only one actually used, but that's simply because the ICON of that one appears in only one quest. Reading carefully I see that the TEXT describes the name of the new tiles in all three cases. So no, he didn't "forget" to implement them in his quest book. Sorry Joe!

As for the reason why it's not coming to retail, it's a little ambiguous. They've said before they own the rights to everything but something about COPD had to do with some agreement they made (maybe having to do with the fact that it wasn't funded in the Haslab campaign but he made it happen anyway)? If it's really up to Joe whether it comes out or not, I'm not sure his own reasons for it (though if he's wanting to stand by what backers were originally told and not upset collectors, I could understand that even if I don't like it).

It seems AH went out of their way to make sure that SQT and PoT in retail have countless differences that would tip off any observant collector that they're not the same product as 2021, so why couldn't they do the same with COPD? Or what if they just made a different Dragon Sculpt? In the meantime, sadly, while collectors are happier, scalpers are making bank on this one being rare and sought after.

[LucaRocks]

I agree that there's more to COPD then they're telling us.

I feel that maybe Joe took a pay cut in royalties or something to have COPD come out with the promise that Hasbro would not seek to make money off of his pack in the future.

I don't know much about Joe and his work with board games and the like, but he might have wanted to get credit as a published game author or something for his own future plans in the industry. Or he could have just simply wanted his creation to see he light of day. Either way, there was some deal made that would be hard to break without a new contract and a higher payout.

[Alby87]

To me, is that they won't to publish back to back every mythic tier expansion. They still have the Ogre Orde and (sometime in the future) Wizards of Morcar. And, remember, this questbook needs miniatures from the KK and RotWL, so, making a pack without those requirements meens another pack with classic base monsters. Probably they will release them with the alternate sculpt that was in the mythic tier, and working on a different sculpt for the dragon.
And, in the official Avalon Hill order, this questbook is the last. I don't know the story of it, but if it is really the last one with the last battle to save the world, maybe it will also be the last one released? (And, to be honest, I'm waiting for the release, because I need this one, with the other two mythic questbook on the app to play it solo)

[Kurgan]

I'm not sure the chronology thing matters much. They released Frozen Horror shortly after KK, ROTWL and the Game System in the remake timeline, despite it being the last official HeroQuest expansion released in the old days (and even according to their own timeline, one of the latter ones).

The cliffhanger ending to COPD to me is similar to the one in ROTWL... it's not meant to imply there is another expansion coming that will wrap up the story officially, it's an invitation to the players to write their own continuation or sequel.

Since the HeroQuest lore is not (or never) "complete" there's always a possibility of writing a new story that takes place before or after COPD. In fact, even if canon really mattered in this franchise (I think it matters very little, others may disagree) you could always say it's a different group of heroes going on adventures. Even if you got rid of Zargon, some other bad guy could be out there pulling strings. You could always do what if stories or flashbacks, the possibilities are endless. People want a coherent world, okay, but thus far, other than the Warhammer 3rd edition world of the late 80's, they're making that up as they go along (the first attempt possibly with the world map in Path of the Wandering Monk... classic HQ didn't have anything except the Old World map printed on the back of the EU ROTWL in '89 and the "Neef Island" map on the Japanese game system of '91).

[Kurgan]

So if there was ever a retail CoPD box, similar to the SQT/PoT retail releases what would it look like? Of course it would have that shiny hologram/foil box surface...

It would include the (10) quest book of course (with errata fixes and text reformatting, map art adjustment like the others)...
Dragon figure (maybe a different sculpt than the Mythic one, maybe a different color other than Gray)
Transparent monster figures (following the pattern set by the other two with 15 or 16 of them. what color? blue? red? purple?)
6 translucent dice to match the above color. Some suggested the figures should all be gray this time (smoky gray dice could be interesting, but the others are too boring, in the world of miniatures, "gray" reminds too many people of "generic needs painting" and not all fans paint, so a whole box of gray shouldn't seem very attractive)
Not sure the exact distributions, but at least one Hero could be included (in this case the Druid, perhaps with a "bear form" mini in red plastic, some suggested a Polar Warbear would do the trick, but an original mini wouldn't be out of the question as it would fit a lot better)

All of the GS monsters are used, and there are a few prominent uses of the Dread Sorcerer figure ("swamp hag" and a skeletal minotaur being another). Maybe transparent gray would be nice after all? Some were suggesting you could mix it in to the other packs to create the "stone" characters that way. Keep in mind of course this could all be adjusted as it never actually calls for any more monsters than were included in the GS at a time (unless I missed some place) with the sole new addition being the Dragon in the final quest (spoilers!). As before we wouldn't expect to see any special rules added for the Druid.

But let's see...
Using the mythic sculpts once more (18 total minis):
2x orcs
2x goblins
2x abominations
2x skeletons
2x zombies
2x mummies
1x dread warrior (in keeping with the slim distribution of them in the other two sets, although I wish it were two in each)
1x gargoyle
1x dread sorcerer
1x dragon (maybe with a better balance this time)
1xDruid Hero
1x red character for use as the "bear form" of the druid?

Tiles:
12 "acid trap" tiles (the originals were double sided with the same image on both sides)
6 "flaming skull" tiles (same image on both sides)
6 "grasping vine trap" tiles (same image on both sides)
1 large "tavern/temple" (double sided) tile.
1x each Short Stairway, Long Stairway, Cliff Corridor (all repeats from KK)

Cards (min 19):
Artifacts: Magical Throwing Dagger, Spell Scroll: Lightning Bolt, Spell Scroll: Tempest, Dragon Spear, Crown of Shadows... other Spell Scrolls (at least 6 more... Heal Body? Courage? Genie? Pass Through Rock? Fire of Wrath? Ball of Flame? consider KK which also used "random draws" originally included 8 Scrolls)
Equipment: Potion of Dexterity (with revised lower price?), Potion of Restoration (1/1), Potion of Battle, Venom Antidote
1x Druid Hero Card
3x Druid Spell cards
I would have said entrance and exit doors (the same as KK/ROTWL) but they chose not to include those in the other two packs so probably wouldn't see them here.

Would it all fit in the box? The other two packs included dice, but saved space by not having any tiles and excluding figures on either side (like having only one abomination or not gargoyle). Then again both KK and ROTWL had more minis (17 and 16 respectively plus each having two doors) and actual tiles (though neither had extra dice). There appears to be space inside the SQT/POT boxes that they could use more efficiently to fit all that in there.

[SirRick]

I just hope if they do release CoPD, its with solid color minis, and not the shiny speckled and/or see through material of these last two mythic retail releases (unless it is fitting story-wise, like the orc spirits). A different dragon sculpt would be nice too. The other one tips over too easily. The dragon could even be the same, just on a 2x2 base instead.