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Overview of the Old World

Discuss general topics relating to HeroQuest that don't fit well in the categories below.

Re: Overview of the Old World

Postby j_dean80 » Saturday April 27th, 2024 10:00pm

The alignments in order go Law Good Neutral Evil Chaos. Can only align with another army the same or one way to right or left, but Evil and Chaos can't align with others.
Good means you only fight when you need to, to ward off Evil or Chaos. Although the Elves still occasionally fight amongst themselves. Neutral means you fight against evil and chaos but also war amongst others including your own race. Evil means you fight anyone just for fun and Chaos means you do the will of the Chaos God that you follow.

There can possibly be Good Undeads. They are the same alignment as their Necromancer. Though they don't think or have free will. Mummies are Neutral because they still have free will. They couldn't be a Hero for a few reasons. They have tomb rot which the smell repels everyone plus they have stupidity unless controlled by Necromancy.

Ogres don't trust Goblinoids so they wouldn't ever be mercenaries for them.

I double checked and the Chaos Gods can't take physical form on Warhammer. Grimdead was probably a Greater Demon then. Fun fact: When a Greater Demon is defeated, they aren't really dead but instead are expelled to the Chaos Realm for 1001 years.
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Re: Overview of the Old World

Postby Cael Darkhollow » Sunday April 28th, 2024 1:53pm

j_dean80 wrote:Ogres are neutral. They will usually work as mercenaries. (They will not work with Goblinoids.)

Kurgan wrote:What if they pay well? Then again, the Ogres in HeroQuest are being influenced by magic (but not such that if you kill the sorcerer they suddenly fight for your side, like some other characters in say MOTM). Is classic HeroQuest in need of changing to conform to Warhammer lore?

j_dean80 wrote:Ogres don't trust Goblinoids so they wouldn't ever be mercenaries for them.


Now hold on a minute,
I found one statement that at first glance seems to support this statement, against a huge mountain of evidence that it is flat out wrong.

Ogres can and most certainly do work for greenskins/Goblinoids :goblin: :orc: it actually is the most common ally pairing in Warhammer based on sheer number of times mentioned in text or depicted in art/photos. They also often work as Mercenaries for Chaos, The Empire, and I even found a reference to rare ogre merc work for a dwarf army, but could not find a single instance of Ogres working for elf armies of any kind, or undead for that matter, and Skaven have their own versions as Rat-Ogres. It is not forbidden in the rules they literally can work for anybody; but I couldn't find any specific examples of mercenary ogres never working with a specific race in Warhammer Fantasy Battles game books, White Dwarf, GW art etc. But I'm sure tons of races wouldn't want to work with THEM considering they find halflings very tasty, dwarfs prefer to keep their ale stocks for themselves etc.

Warhammer Fantasy Battle 3rd edition 1987 page 237 in the bestiary entry for Ogres states wrote: Despite their aggressive, cannibalistic and rather unattractive ways, Ogres are not considered to be evil, but Neutral. Although Ogres are merciless killers, they are not plotters of evil, nor will they have much to do with goblinoids. Individuals may be of any alignment, but for game purposes are considered neutral.

Ogres will fight as mercenaries for most races, but distrust goblinoids. Although they will fight for goblinoids, the Ld characteristic value automatically falls by -1. This does not affect the points value.


Warhammer Armies 3rd edition 1988 page 151 under Ogre Mercenary Contingent wrote: Ogres cause fear in all living creatures under 10 feet tall. Ogres distrust goblinoids, although they will fight for them as mercenaries. The Leadership characteristic value of Ogres automatically falls by -1 when they are fighting for goblinoids. Many Ogres become mercenaries, mainly because an Ogre's idea of an ideal life is one of constant fighting relieved by frequent periods of eating(or vice-versa). However, these are not necessarily mutually exclusive activities for Ogres.


Warhammer Battle Bestiary 4th edition 1992 page 21 under Orcs And Goblins wrote: Ogre bands will sometimes hire out their services to Orcs although Ogres are equally happy to fight for humans or anyone else for that matter.

Warhammer Battle Bestiary 4th edition 1992 page 69 under Ogres wrote: Ogres do not especially like other races and will sometimes hunt down stray Orcs, Trolls, and even men who wander into the mountains. Because they are such good fighters, many races attempt to recruit Ogres into their armies, promising food or gold or whatever else the Ogres want in return for their services. Bands of Ogre mercenaries have often fought on behalf of the Empire as well as for Orc and Goblin Chieftains. Ogres are notoriously unbothered who they fight for.


You have to remember at this point in early Warhammer editions/in-game history Ogres did not have their own army at this time, being decidedly rare West of the World's Edge Mountains only being found in small mercenary bands, and their homeland wasn't detailed yet East of the Dark Lands. The only Ogre models Games Workshop had available were mercenaries, either generic Ogres, Chaos Ogres or Empire Ogres.

The most famous Ogre of all time was the Mercenary Captain GOLGFAG who was mentioned in the early editions but didn't get game stats until 5th edition in The Dogs of War Army List. His exploits are recounted often with service to various Orcs and Goblins being mentioned most. He is the sole example of an Ogre Mercenary that I could find working for a dwarf army however. He received his own miniature available for several Warhammer editions either single packaged or as part of a mercenary band boxed set. The Ogre from Battle Masters Board Game is patterned after GOLGFAG's art as well.
Dogs of War Army Book 5th edition 1998 page 30-31 under Golgfag's Mercenary Ogres wrote: Who Could forget the Ogres? Not anyone with a sense of smell, that's for sure. Worse manners than Trolls, and that's saying something, but there are few troops you'd rather have on your side in the heat of battle. ~Elodhir Seaman, Elven gentleman adventurer
Golgfag is the biggest, ugliest and quite definitely the loudest Ogre to shamble out of the Northern Wastes in living memory. He soon found himself leading a bunch of equally brutal Ogre warriors. He Quickly developed a taste for man-flesh and joined forces with an Orc Warlord called Gnashrak Badtooth. Gnashrak was busy fighting against the Dwarfs of Karak Kadrin high up in the World's Edge Mountains, Golgfag wasn't sure he liked the taste of Dwarf, but was more than happy to find out.
Gnashrak thought the Ogres would prove just the kind of troops he needed to sort out the Dwarfs. However, he soon grew tired of the Ogres' appetite for Goblins, booze, and raucous singing. After one particularly loud drinking session Golgfag and Gnashrak got into a huge fight. Soon all the Ogres and Orcs were scrapping. Golgfag tore off the Orc's arm and used it to bash his way out of the encampment before leading his lads to safety. Gnashrak was completely enraged. Golgfag promptly offered his services to the Dwarf leader Ungrim Ironfist. He showed him Gnashrak's arm as proof of his sincerity. In the face of such a convincing offer Ironfist was hardly able to refuse.


When Ogres finally received their own Army book in 6th edition WHFB 2005 their homeland the Ogre Kingdoms in the Mountains of Mourn was detailed and part of their main army was a previously unknown strain of Goblinoid known as a Gnoblar. Gnoblars looked very much like any other goblin but with an even bigger nose.
Ogre Kingdoms army book 6th edition 2008 page 15 under Gnoblars wrote: Gnoblars stand a little taller than a man's waist, and are relatives of the common goblins that plague the Old World.


Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay Old World Bestiary 2nd edition 2005 page 103 under ogres wrote: While they may be brutal and can eat nearly anything, ogres are not evil per se. Since dumb muscle is welcome in almost any army, ogres can be found throughout the Old World. They make formidible mercenaries and band of ogre sell-swords are a common sight in the Empire, Tilea, and the Border Princes. They have also been known to fight with Orcs, Goblins, and the forces of Chaos. Far to the northeast of the Empire ar the Ogre kingdoms, but few Imperial Ogres have cause to go there.
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Re: Overview of the Old World

Postby j_dean80 » Sunday April 28th, 2024 2:08pm

Thanks for the correction. I missed that line cause I don't have my book with me (in a hotel for work). Tried to look it up online, which isn't always the easiest.
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Re: Overview of the Old World

Postby j_dean80 » Tuesday April 30th, 2024 9:22pm

Here is what the Gargoyle - Lesser Demon should look like.
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Re: Overview of the Old World

Postby Zenithfleet » Sunday February 2nd, 2025 3:40am

I'm uneasy about the view that HeroQuest clearly and unambiguously fits into the Warhammer background.

That may be because I only know Warhammer from 4th edition onwards. Back in 3rd things were different. But I have a lot of trouble trying to reconcile HeroQuest's background with Warhammer's background as established from 4th edition onward.

I'm not entirely sure what Kurgan's ongoing objection is ( despite having read this entire thread :shock: ) but in my case, I would love to fit classic HeroQuest into the Warhammer background. Unfortunately, I can't. It really does seem to be a parallel world or alternative timeline, despite the claims of some posters in this thread. Again, this may be because I don't know 3rd ed, only 4th ed and onward.

The biggest issue I have is the overall timeline. Not the specifics of Magnus the Pious as Emperor--the HQ references on that note are indeed suggestive--but the big picture. A couple of years ago I went through the EU game products and drew up a rough timeline.

For instance, the fall of the Dwarf kingdoms is due to Morcar, not earthquakes caused by Skaven machinery gone wrong or Slann moving the continents, as was variously suggested in different WHB 4th ed materials. It's Morcar and his forces systematically obliterating the Dwarf holds one by one.

And that seems to have happened after the Empire was founded, not before. When Morcar first went to the bad side, the Empire already existed.

Later he destroyed Kalos (as described in Return of the Witch Lord) and also wrecked the Dwarf kingdoms. Kalos fell 1000 years ago, the only concrete distant-past time marker we get as far as I know. (That also causes some internal problems because it suggests Rogar and co also existed 1000 years ago, whereas other material implies they were around more recently, or at least it feels that way.)

Do these events fit better in the context of 3rd ed Warhammer Fantasy? Was the history/timeline loose enough to accommodate them?


Then of course there are differences in place names (Athelorn vs Athel Loren).

HeroQuest's internal canon is all over the shop in any case--just try figuring out the geography of Karak Varn--but that's not really on topic.

The map on the back of Return of the Witch Lord EU is something I tend to disregard, because no effort has been made to Heroquest-ify it. They didn't bother renaming Loren to Athelorn, for instance. It looks like a case of "just slap that existing art asset on the back and let's clock off for lunch."


The other issue is that, as Bareheaded Warrior has said elsewhere, HeroQuest doesn't feel like Warhammer in terms of era. It feels more primitive, more medieval perhaps, or more Conanesque. More sword and sorcery. Despite the Magnus the Pious references, that period still feels too recent to be a good match. I could see HQ as taking place in the first thousand years of the WH Empire, but not a scant couple of centuries ago.

(The Men-at-Arms from WoM are an exception and their design doesn't really match the rest of HeroQuest.)


Regarding earlier discussions in this thread, I found Cael Darkhollow's position particularly odd. Mostly Cael argues that HQ is definitively set in the Warhammer world, and that if you take it in any other direction, even by making your own quests that don't happen to fit Warhammer, you're no longer really playing real HeroQuest but some kind of pseudo-customised parallel imitation version. (Er, so what if you were an Aussie ten-year-old who had never heard of Warhammer and only had what was in the HQ products to go on?)

And yet Cael also said this, which I strongly agree with:

Cael Darkhollow wrote:HeroQuest is a Dungeons & Dragons dungeon crawl simplified for boardgame play (D&D light) with a veneer of Warhammer setting applied for brand theme.


As far as I'm concerned the Warhammer theme is indeed a thin veneer. A well-chosen veneer that gives it a lot of evocative flavour, and a touch of that "Northern hardness and darkness" that Tolkien tried to capture. But a veneer nonetheless. If you scratch the surface it flakes right off.

HeroQuest starts out with some nominal Warhammer World flavour and names - Chaos, the various enemies, World's Edge Mountains, Black Fire Pass and so on. In the base game the resemblance is clear. But right from the start, it has elements that clearly came from elsewhere: the historic band of four heroes versus the dark lord, riffing on Tolkien and on the D&D archetypes that imitated him. I gather 'Morcar' was the name of Baker's own invented evil mastermind, not something GW added.

And very quickly it veers off into its own territory. The Dwarf history is completely different. The Undead history is completely different. The placenames, the famous dead kings, the sequence of events--no effort whatsoever is made to match them up with the Warhammer that I know. It looks like a case of "OK, we'll start with these names and concepts for flavour, but now I'm going to steer this ship to islands of my own devising."

Not only that, the basic attitude of HQ is much more earnest than Warhammer's satirical, cynical tone. That might just be due to its family-boardgame nature, of course. But I find it hard to imagine a snobbish Warhammer elf or a cheerfully hooliganish Orc in official HeroQuest, as fun as they would be to include in a fanmade quest. They look superficially the same but they don't act like it.

It's as if Stephen Baker wanted to go out to an important social gathering, so he asked his tailor friend (Games Workshop) what to wear. His tailor friend fitted him out with an elegant suit. But underneath it, Baker was still wearing his usual trusty Dungeons and Dragons underpants. And as soon as he got the chance, he took the jacket off and slipped into something more comfortable from his own wardrobe.

(Sorry Stephen, I could probably have come up with a better analogy... :lol: )

1995's Warhammer Quest, now, that's definitively set in the Warhammer world. It's not only wearing the clothes, it's covered in eight-pointed star tattoos. But even that game is still wearing D&D undies. You could reskin that game in another setting. In fact I think that's more or less unofficially happened with the game Shadows of Brimstone.


A useful comparison might be the boardgame Dungeonquest. There have been at least four editions of that, set in at least three different fantasy worlds. For anyone who doesn't know, it's a game about going into a dragon's castle, stealing from its hoard, and getting out before sunset. You will probably die in the attempt. It's a fairly quick, random, entertaining push-your-luck game.

The first edition (Drakborgen) was, as far as I know, a generic goblins-and-dragons sort of setting.

The second edition was published by Games Workshop and nominally set in the Warhammer World, so it had Snotlings and other GW creations.

Then it went out of print for a long time, before Fantasy Flight Games in the US picked it up and published a 3rd edition, and later a (superior) Revised Edition. FFG set the game in its proprietary Terrinoth setting, also used for Descent and other games from that company.

Recently I hear the old Drakborgen version has been reprinted, or is about to be.

Of the settings, FFG's Terrinoth is the most bland and uninteresting in my opinion. I saw one reviewer call it the 'boiled white rice of fantasy settings'. :lol: I'd much prefer to play a version set in the Warhammer world, or heck, even some of the old D&D settings.

But the Dungeonquest game itself still works fine whatever the setting. Stealing from a dragon is so basic an archetype that the veneer doesn't really matter.

I don't much like the general style of the modern Hasbroquest remake. (As has been said earlier in the thread, it faces the problem of not really being able to use any setting, caught between two stools. Though it leans more toward modern D&D in its presentation.) But then, I didn't much like the style and tone of the classic North American edition either. The modern version is just bringing to the surface what the original NA adaptation had already inserted under the skin. :P


All that aside--as I said, I would love to fit HQ into the established Warhammer world. So if you have solutions for the timeline issues above, please let me know. For example, my own pet theory is that the Witch Lord is Kadon, from the old 4th ed Undead book, and the Spirit Blade is the weapon used by the Orc who slew him. :skeleton:
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Re: Overview of the Old World

Postby cornixt » Monday February 3rd, 2025 6:13pm

Don't take everything said in the HQ quest notes as being true, it's all just what one guy is telling the heroes. We don't know his actual motivations.


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Re: Overview of the Old World

Postby Zenithfleet » Tuesday February 4th, 2025 1:45am

cornixt wrote:Don't take everything said in the HQ quest notes as being true, it's all just what one guy is telling the heroes. We don't know his actual motivations.


That's a level of cynical sophistication appropriate to Warhammer, or to HeroQuest played by adults. But not to HeroQuest as originally written for ten-year-old boys. :P

Most of the background text in HQ is theoretically told to you by Mentor. I say 'theoretically' because in practice the EU questbooks play fast and loose with the Gaze text. Sometimes he's talking to you before you head out on a quest. Sometimes he's miraculously talking to you once you've already arrived or deep in a multi-quest adventure, and occasionally the writers remember to make this plausible (the communication crystals in Kellar's Keep) but most of the time they forget or don't care. Often he acts like a Choose Your Own Adventure narrator describing what you're doing as you do it, like picking the lock of your cell with a rat bone, in a way that makes no sense if you think of the heroes as actual people--they'd already know they were picking the lock, so why is Mentor telling them about it? Sometimes the writers try to make it seem as if he's really having a conversation with the heroes, but then lose the thread, so you get amusing stuff like the intro to Return of the Witch Lord, where the monologue starts in a room with Mentor and ends with you arriving at Kalos while he's still talking.

And that's because Mentor is barely a character. He's a transparent overlay, a mouthpiece for the quest designer's omniscient narration. That's why the writers have such trouble keeping his narration style consistently plausible. There's not really any 'there' there. They called him Mentor (which is practically waving a flag that he's just a mouthpiece and not really a character), but they might as well have just called him The Narrator. He's like the voiceover in the opening credits of an old cartoon. When he tells you about the history of the Dwarves, that's the writer of Kellar's Keep telling you about the history of the Dwarves. If you don't believe him, then you don't believe the actual HQ writer either.

(I can think of a modern exception: Stephen Baker's Prophecy of Telor questbook for the Hasbro remake, in which Mentor doesn't know what's going on for the first few quests, and the Evil Wizard player is given secret information about what's really happening. Mentor comes across as slightly more of a real character in that quest pack. But that would probably have been too complicated for classic HeroQuest.)

In practice, the Evil Wizard player is meant to be the one who reads out the parchment text to the other players, so it's really the GM or DM who is doing the narrating. Many of the parchment texts are written with that in mind. "You pick the lock of your cell with an old rat bone and escape" makes perfect sense coming from the gamesmaster / dungeonmaster to introduce a quest, but not if it's meant to come from an actual character in the game world called Mentor. In which case, the background history and worldbuilding is coming directly from the gamesmaster. Doubting what Mentor says means doubting the gamesmaster when he/she tells you what's going on. "You're exploring an ancient temple..." "No we're not! You're lying! We're having a swim at the beach!" :P

You can, of course, treat Mentor as a genuine character in the game's world. You can assume that if Mentor ever contradicts Warhammer lore, he's getting it wrong or making it up, whereas if what he says matches up with WFB then he's correct. You can easily fit HQ into Warhammer that way. But if you do that, nerdy discussions like this have no point, which sucks all the fun out of them. :geek:

It's like old attempts to decipher Bronze Age tablets. Some people argued "It's language X!" and every time they found a word that seemed to match language X they took it as evidence for their theory, but every time they found a word that didn't fit, they just shrugged and said it must have been borrowed from some other language. Well, a tablet can be made to fit any language if you do that.

I could just as well say HQ really takes place in Middle-Earth and all the apparent Warhammer references are figments of Mentor's mind. Case dismissed!

(Don't get me wrong though--it's hilarious to imagine Mentor as just some lunatic in Altdorf telling the heroes all sorts of rubbish. :lol: )
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Re: Overview of the Old World

Postby Nlinindoll » Tuesday February 4th, 2025 2:16am

Zenithfleet wrote:(Don't get me wrong though--it's hilarious to imagine Mentor as just some lunatic in Altdorf telling the heroes all sorts of rubbish. :lol: )


This perfectly describes me.
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Re: Overview of the Old World

Postby cornixt » Tuesday February 4th, 2025 11:11am

Zenithfleet wrote:You can, of course, treat Mentor as a genuine character in the game's world. You can assume that if Mentor ever contradicts Warhammer lore, he's getting it wrong or making it up, whereas if what he says matches up with WFB then he's correct. You can easily fit HQ into Warhammer that way. But if you do that, nerdy discussions like this have no point, which sucks all the fun out of them. :geek:

It's not that these discussions have no point, it's that there is no answer to be found, no one is going to be able to definitively say at this point anyway. These kinds of discussions are fun, regardless.

I'm pretty sure they intended them to be the same world, even if they got bits wrong whether intentionally or unintentionally. That doesn't diminish the parts that do match, or restrict us from being inspired to bring elements from one game into the other. The background isn't even consistent between any two editions of Warhammer. I find it much easier to think of an unreliable narrator than an entirely separate parallel world, but the game is whatever you make it.


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Re: Overview of the Old World

Postby Zenithfleet » Wednesday February 5th, 2025 10:38am

cornixt wrote:
Zenithfleet wrote:You can, of course, treat Mentor as a genuine character in the game's world. You can assume that if Mentor ever contradicts Warhammer lore, he's getting it wrong or making it up, whereas if what he says matches up with WFB then he's correct. You can easily fit HQ into Warhammer that way. But if you do that, nerdy discussions like this have no point, which sucks all the fun out of them. :geek:

It's not that these discussions have no point, it's that there is no answer to be found, no one is going to be able to definitively say at this point anyway. These kinds of discussions are fun, regardless.

I'm pretty sure they intended them to be the same world, even if they got bits wrong whether intentionally or unintentionally. That doesn't diminish the parts that do match, or restrict us from being inspired to bring elements from one game into the other. The background isn't even consistent between any two editions of Warhammer. I find it much easier to think of an unreliable narrator than an entirely separate parallel world, but the game is whatever you make it.


No, no, we can find the REAL true answer if we just try hard enough! Just like we can control Chaos! They laughed at me at the Academy, they said trying to make sense of an old kids' game was a waste of time, but I'll show them! I'll show them ALL!!!

:D :shock: :D

Anyway, fair enough if you prefer the unreliable narrator angle. It does mean making Mentor more of a real character, which could be entertaining. Was it you upthread who said their NPCs called him Mentor the Mad? :lol:

I put my money where my mouth was and wrote a bit of 'parallel world' backstory, so I'll leave a link here in case anyone is interested.
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