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Overview of the Old World

Discuss general topics relating to HeroQuest that don't fit well in the categories below.

Re: Overview of the Old World

Postby Kurgan » Wednesday May 19th, 2021 11:40am

The reality is that this is a board game targeted at young boys who are inspired by the ideals of heroism (and the coolness of badass action figures beating up nasty monsters and saving the pretty girl/getting all the fame & glory/impressing the big shots around you) from the "first world" of the late 80's/early 90's. This is a cooperative (quasi-competitive) game inspired by epic fantasy and similar games. It has similarities to Conan and Lord of the Rings and D&D but it is also not actually any of those things, but its own thing. What it "ought" to become is an open question.

When I re-read the introductory texts of HeroQuest as an adult, without throwing it all aside and imposing a developed "canon" of Warhammer Fantasy (pick your edition) upon it and trying to rationalize it... seems fairly straightforward. Each of the big kingdoms are sending their best guys (in terms of skill and in terms of their embodiment of the ideals of that society) to form a band to go on these missions like legendary heroes did in the past. You're not front line troops. You're special forces.

So when I'm playing I'm not focusing on how the Barbarian is paying his taxes on the land he's working back home, or what the Dwarf's kids are doing, or what the Wizard's social status is within his wizarding guild when he's not having adventures. I don't worry who is feeding the Elf's dog when he's away or whether his wife is cheating on him with that good-for-nothing neighbor Ned Fillandiel. :evil:

Mentor is the boss, he's the one who has called upon the Heroes. Who is Mentor? He's some guy who has been deputized or solicited by the Emperor, for these missions. But Mentor has his own goals and big picture concerns beyond that of the Empire. Someone once pointed out that most of the missions are not the Emperor's demands, though he does reward you for various quests. In that sense you're mercenaries, but the reward that is held out is that you will become Knights. Mentor is there to give you your mission, the narrator who explains what's going on. Zargon/Morcar is the guy who throws stuff on the board and tells you when you're losing.

But more about rewards... they hold out becoming an Imperial Knight. Cool, but what does that mean?

What does becoming a Knight here entail? Does it mean that now you are at the Emperor's personal beck and call? Are you now having to manage lands apart from your original home and your new loyalty is to that authority rather than your kingdoms back home? Or is it just some kind of honorary title, giving us elevated honor and status? Does the player have to worry about giving some of his gold in taxes? Does he have to do a side quest where he's fighting some guys in some land dispute rather than adventuring in the mines of magic like usual? Does he have to go to tournaments to keep up his reputation with the other knights? Is there a lot of paperwork?

Since it's your adventure, you make up the story points, but to me it seems that all of the Heroes were recruited by their peoples and drawn by Mentor, who in turn had convinced the Emperor (or the Empire sought out Mentor, as Fantasy Kings often seek out wise men for guidance or any advantage they can get). Whether you choose to play your character as some kind of cynical anti-hero, a blindly obedient servant of social/cultural (or economic!) forces, or whatever is your prerogative of course. The game seems to be pushing you in the direction of a "Hero" somebody who is on the side of right, but a little fame and glory on the side can't be too bad can it? No worrying about "now am I chaotic good, lawful neutral or ..." No worrying about whether I'm going to run afoul of some political science major turned activist, etc.

The novels (which are "canon" if you want them to be) give some backstories of some of the characters. The Barbarian is a criminal exiled from his society. The Wizard is a student who lost his master under tragic circumstances. The Elf keeps to himself mostly, keeping himself mysterious, like Legolas in LOTR. The Dwarf is just a grumpy old man. In HQ proper, the EQP and BQP give some backstory which tends to reinforce the earlier notions of what those characters are and how they relate to the societies they came from. Had we gotten a Wizard and Dwarf quest pack we'd probably get more on them too, but for now that's up to you to invent. The name changes imply the character can be what you want them to be. Are all the Barbarians from the same village? Are all the Dwarves from the same family? Is the Elf putting on glasses and a fake mustache and getting back in line after his first run?

It's a fascinating process to try to imagine how it would all work "in real life." At the end of the day though, to play the game you may just have to say "it just works" because "it just does." That can be done without destroying suspension of disbelief. It's still a game with rules and goals that's meant for fun. Having your character have to take naps or starve to death during a quest tends to get in the way for most people, and the same could be said about political debates and philosophizing about class warfare (OR it could be the driving factor in creating quests... maybe the heroes have to protect the striking workers or something, I guess, if you're writing it, go for it).

I much prefer the blank slate approach. That means you start with a generic character and you can develop that if you want or not, it's cool either way.
Even if the GM wants to do some world building (which I have for me), that isn't imposed upon the players. The individual Heroes have as much or as little as the player controlling them wants to give. I haven't demanded for example that my Wizard player has to explain how many years he spent as an apprentice and what rank he has reached, or what he had to sacrifice to get to where he is. I haven't asked the Barbarian what he thinks is best in life. I haven't asked the Elf what his preferences are or the Dwarf if he's ever been tossed. The game simply defines their basic abilities and the rest is wide open, and strictly optional for enjoyment of the gameplay. The EU game gave you a blank coat of arms to doodle if you wanted, but other than asking for your name, that was about as far as it pushed you. You didn't even have to paint the figures if you didn't want to.

I can't help thinking of Shadiversity on youtube here ("Fantasy Rearmed"). But he's not my GM. Even when he's throwing out suggestions like "this is what's realistic for the medieval period" he's not demanding anything, like this is the only way to play a game, just giving his opinion on what he thinks is more realistic. Fantasy tends to take what it wants from the real world and then make up the rest. It's a bit like how comic books present alternate versions of reality which we dive into and enjoy with suspension of disbelief. Batman's Gotham City and Superman's Metropolis are supposedly both based on real life American cities, but each takes a different approach... one is overly dark and dystopian, while the other is overly bright and nearly utopian. They each emphasize (or over-emphasize) aspects of real life, and while each expresses a truth, they don't give the whole truth. There are also different presentations, giving different interpretations of Batman and Superman, with different levels of heroism for each. So maybe you write it as the Empire being a cruel dictatorship and you're fighting for them because you've got bills to pay, or you just don't see the common dignity of the serfs. Or maybe you write it as being the bright and great hope for peace, an idealization of anything that existed in antiquity and the good guys are actually good. This goes back to the Orc discussion... are they demonic cannon fodder or poor benighted beings forced into slavery that really ought to be liberated rather than exterminated on the battlefield? Do they have any honor or are they in fact evil mushrooms? The game doesn't give you options, but you can take whatever interpretations you like when you write the story!


But back to the Heroes, the player characters... take the HeroQuest Wizard... is he brave or a coward? Is he strategic and crafty or is he brash and unpredictable? Is the Dwarf greedy or is he generous? How you play them is another part of how their character is developed, but that could change on a dime depending upon how the quest is going. Ooops, my old strategy of dashing into each room and attacking every monster isn't working, maybe I should do some more searching... or oops, my searching for treasure constantly is costing me in terms of body points and wandering monsters maybe I should search for traps and get into position first... so many possibilities!

Using the Warhammer world as stone tablets that your HQ game has to be sculpted to fit into is one approach. I prefer to use it as a toolkit, a grab bag, or box of suggestions... I'll shake it and rifle through it to see if I can find something that I like, and I'll dust it off and use it, or take those found objects and craft them into a part of what I already have going on my HeroQuest pile. I don't see that as a betrayal to the original creators or as an insult to the hardwork of those who have developed the WHF world, or those fans who feel like they're keeping it "alive" today. It's just a tool. But whatever I'm doing, I'm perfectly capable of playing a game with someone who has a totally different idea. Maybe I think the Wizard should be one way, and they think he should be another, but within the basic rules there's a freedom for the person controlling him to use him a variety of ways. If Warhammer says "he shouldn't be able to use that type of magic!" or "that weapon doesn't work that way!" well, who cares, unless as the GM I've decided to hold myself to that arbitrary standard. The parts I'm using are the ones that are relevant to the gameplay experience. There are games out there that simulate mowing the lawn, but I'm not interested in playing that aspect of life here. I can safely assume that if the Heroes have lawns, they are probably being maintained somehow, but if its going to distract from the game I'm trying to have, I'm going to just ignore it.
Last edited by Kurgan on Wednesday April 24th, 2024 11:07am, edited 5 times in total.


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Re: Overview of the Old World

Postby iKarith » Thursday May 20th, 2021 12:07am

Kurgan wrote:Batman's Gotham City and Superman's Metropolis are supposedly both based on real life American cities, but each takes a different approach...


The same city, in fact. They're both NYC. That doesn't work, obviously, but it's a comic book so yes it does. :)
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Re: Overview of the Old World

Postby Dezziedc » Thursday May 27th, 2021 12:20am

Kurgan wrote:The novel's map is posted on an earlier page (see the folded book pages that say they are loosely based at the bottom text. The Wizard mentioned in Fellowship of Four is a different Wizard than the young protagonist Wizard in Screaming Spectre. At least one of the Wizards could be from an island or from some other place, and if his origins are mysterious, I'm cool with that, since Wizards in general are mysterious. But they all seem to be mortal human beings, not quasi-divine beings like in Tolkien's mythos.

As to saying that the novels "aren't canon" says who? I mean, other than in the opinion of some fans because the map doesn't match exactly the Warhammer map (it shows stuff north of the map area of the ROTWL EU map) but doesn't match the Advanced HQ map for those areas. There's a debate over what ought to be "canon" for HQ, but has there ever been any official statement from Stephen Baker, from Hasbro, from Games Workshop (in White Dwarf magazine?), from anyone in any kind of "authority" or level of officialness? If not, then it seems its up for grabs. If I want to say only the sticker album is canon, then I can have that opinion, while someone else can say I'm full of it and their view of canon is true, etc.

I think the fact that the novels bear the official brand and include quests intended to be used with the Game System, and are released in the UK (birthplace of the game) indicates they were intended, at least at the time, to be just as "canon" as anything else in the franchise. If someone has contrary evidence (other than "well it doesn't fit Warhammer fantasy 3rd/4th edition enough") I'd love to see it. If you don't think it adds to the discussion here, feel free to start a new thread or just send me a PM.


So having done a bit of research for a game I am building, I've located a couple of posts on Dave Morris's blog site (I'm sure the links are posted elsewhere on Ye Olde Inn as well):

http://fabledlands.blogspot.com/2016/12/fellowship.html

http://fabledlands.blogspot.com/2017/12/khan-say-fairer-than-that.html

He goes on to explain the reason for the differences in the original books and the transition across to a more War Hammer related world as the books progressed.

I have also spent some time redrawing the original map from the first book:

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Re: Overview of the Old World

Postby Cael Darkhollow » Friday December 29th, 2023 8:10pm

Cael Darkhollow wrote:Ah but we DO know when HQ was in the Warhammer timeline, if we make some reasonable (based on the evidence) assumptions.

HQ was written mainly during 3rd edition WH and the earliest 4th edition. 4th WHFB main box set came out on 1992, the same year as the last HQ products: White Dwarf 145 with HQ adventure, and the Elf and Barbarian Quest packs.
4th edition army books then started coming out a year later in 1993.

Okay. So that gives us a definitive "has to be before" date for any HQ publication on the timeline.
The in-game timeline advances based on those WH/HQ publications as well, the current time line for 4th edition WHFB was set as sometime after 2502 on the Imperial calendar, which marked the year of ascension of Karl Franz, the current reining Emperor. So current day for 4th edition would be within a decade of his crowning, let's say 2502-2512 to give him enough time to be the emperor for a bit.

Now HeroQuest obviously mentions "the Empire" throughout so we can establish a concrete "cannot be before" date as Imperial year 50. Sigmar forges the Empire in year 1, then disappears in year 50, the elector counts are established to determine the new emperor.

HQ must occur no earlier than IC 50 but no later than 2501. So now we have 2450 years of Empire timeline in which to figure out when HQ was.

Some emperors and their dates of reign are known eliminating those periods from consideration E.g. 1124-1152 Emperor Manfred. 1053-1115 Emperor Boris Goldgather, etc.
Heinreich 1 ruled 51-100.

the first gap where the rulers are unknown is 101-300 (200 years)
another gap occurs somewhere between 322 and
479 (157 years)
another from early 500s to 677 (170 years give or take)
a final gap from 732-1000 although we have some emperor names in that period. (200ish years)

from 1053-2302 the emperors are known or there is internal strife with multiple known claimants to the throne, clearly not the time of HQ.
after 2302 all the emperors are well known or no gaps exist larger than a decade or two.

If we place HQ in any one of the earlier known gaps it could be anywhere in those missing roughly 727 years. we have just narrowed the 2450 years of the Empire between must be after the IC 50 date and cannot be after date of IC 2501 considerably.
You could comfortably squeeze HQ in any of those four 150-200 year gaps in the early history of the Empire.

But I believe we can narrow further still.
the time period after 2302 to 2501 is well known,
but if we assume that prince Magnus mentioned in HQ is also the Emperor mentioned in HQ, as emperors in Warhammer retain all their previous titles. Then we can actually pin point on the WH timeline exactly when HQ takes place:
Davane wrote:I need to read up on my Warhammer Lore to do this properly (been some time since I used anything deeper than an overview for background purposes), but I'd set it in the earlier part of the Empire, probably shortly after Magnus the Pious becomes Emperor. The Empire is still primitive enough that the events of HQ could have happened, even if they weren't necessarily documented. The Emperor and his army are busy claiming lands and fighting off unusually coordinated greenskin attacks on the borders of the Empire, and at least one of these happens to be near Karak Varn.

Cael Darkhollow wrote:Both Prince Magnus and the Emperor mentioned in HeroQuest are one and the same. :o
AND are the same Emperor Magnus elected in 2304 in the Warhammer world.

In Warhammer, the last current emperor Karl Franz was the Elector Count of Reikland, Prince of Altdorf, and the Emperor of the realm maintaining all titles concurrently.

Prince Magnus from HeroQuest and Warhammer would be the Prince of Nuln, the same individual known as Magnus the Pious, a noble of Nuln, who repelled the largest Chaos invasion known as the Great War against Chaos in 2302-2303 and became Emperor in 2304 as the people demanded it. During his reign he spent much effort to eradicate remaining Chaos warbands throughout his lands, "the servants of Chaos were hunted down in the forests, and many wild and long-abandoned lands were re-settled."


HeroQuest is set in the period right after Magnus of Nuln was elected emperor and then spent his remaining reign trying to eradicate remaining Chaos pockets in his realm.

We know that Emperor Magnus established the colleges of magic during his reign. "Originally established by the High Elf archmage Teclis at the request of Magnus the Pious, in 2304 IC, following the Great War against Chaos and Magnus's ascension to the Imperial throne." This jives with the transition of elemental magic used in 3rd edition Warhammer and HeroQuest to the trained battle magic found in the 8 disciplines taught by the elf wizard Teclis in the colleges, used as the magic system in 4th edition WH on.
We know that the other Milton Bradley game in conjunction with Games Workshop, Battlemasters released in 1992 also has Imperial forces clashing with Chaos armies so fits the cleaning up the great war Chaos remnants of Magnus's reign period as well.

Magnus was emperor from 2304-2369 so the events of HeroQuest and Battlemasters would happen during that 65 year period, but much more likely right after the Chaos war aftermath in the first 20-30 years of his rule while he was still cleaning up the empire, so sometime between the years 2304-2335 on the Imperial Calendar.

This explains somewhat the Emperors desperate plight trapped in Kellars Keep of Karak Varn, the Empire was still reeling from the Great War and defeat of the Chaos Army general in 2303 at Praag, and Chaos forces still roamed the lands.
It also explains the dire peril of the WitchLord's return as the Empire is in ruins and needs to be rebuilt, hardly able to face another strong foe immediately.

The Emperor had only just been recently re-established and stabilized. "Rebuilding of the Empire. Magnus estabishes his court at Nuln."
The aftermath of the war was still a period of great turmoil and danger, his need for heroes and champions was great. His forces were largely depleted from the war, giving him cause to hire Heroes for hire or mercenaries as Prince of Nuln (Prince Magnus gold in HQ) from his personal coffers rather than from the empires depleted resources expended in the war and lawless pretender period prior.
This would explain the HQ wizard using elemental magic as the battle magic was just starting to be taught in 2304 so he likely wouldn't have been able to study it yet.

It gives reason for the HQ Barbarian to head north for a homefaring, the north was just overrun by a Chaos incursion, he wanted to find out the fate of his kin, only to find out there still are chaos threats such as the Frozen Horror to battle.

I believe the events of HeroQuest occur on the Warhammer timeline sometime in the years 2304-2335 some 200 years before the current setting of 4th edition Warhammer.


Games Workshop is about to release Warhammer: The Old World (yes THAT Old World that original HeroQuest was based on) in early first quarter 2024, a return to the Warhammer Fantasy setting after they killed it off in 8th edition. While the End Times (end of the world) is still canon for WH they are putting this new incarnation game much earlier in the Imperial Calendar at year 2276, just 25 years before the 2301 Great Chaos Incursion, and the Great War Against Chaos which ended in 2304 and the victorious Magnus the Pious is unanimously elected as Emperor, signaling official end of the Age of Three Emperors.
Also in 2304 Teclis teaches human wizards to control their powers, establishes the Colleges of Magic in The Empire and Thorgrim Grudgebearer is crowned the new High King of the Dwarfs.
In 2369 Magnus the Pious dies; Leopold is elected the new Emperor of The Empire.

I still believe that Original HeroQuest can be reasonably assumed (based on careful analysis of the products themselves compared to the Warhammer timeline and assuming Emperor Magnus and Prince Magnus are the same individual) to have occurred sometime from 2304-2335 on the Imperial Calendar.

This is very exciting news for those who view their classic HeroQuest setting as part of the larger WarHammer Old World, just a scant 29-59 years before the speculated HeroQuest timeline! The maps and lore info will be worth their weight in gold for classic HQ and Warhammer Fantasy fans alike. Here's hoping beyond hope they bring back Fimirs! :fimir: It looks like they are changing the Magic rules to be more in line with old-school HeroQuest too.
in 2276 Chaos is at a low ebb so daemons are rare with Chaos Warriors and Beastmen being much more common before 2301 when the Great Chaos Incursion began, the Skaven ratmen are torn by civil war in their underworld making surface raiding very rare leading many in the Old World to believe they are myth. Lizardmen, Dark Elves, and Ogre Kingdoms are far away from the Empire or Bretonnia so except rare visitors or mercenaries are nearly unheard of not forming large armies by themselves on Old World soil. High Elves still maintain a few isolated outposts on the Shores of the Old World. The time of the three Emperors is a dark time with no one claimant to the throne and many warring factions within the Empire itself. A perfect timeline for some good old HeroQuest adventuring but just a few decades before the events of the main Quest book, Kellar's Keep or Return of the WitchLord.
I am so tickled to put this news about Warhammer: The Old World in the Overview of the Old World Thread. CHEERS!
Last edited by Cael Darkhollow on Friday December 29th, 2023 8:56pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Overview of the Old World

Postby HispaZargon » Friday December 29th, 2023 8:31pm

Thanks Cael Darkhollow, good to see you around here again... yes, the arrival of The Old World looks exciting for Warhammer lovers, but I am not sure if the new lore that GW will define will fit well with classic HeroQuest.

I have always agreed with your theory of considering Prince Magnus as Magnus the Pidius and so on, for sure the years after becoming him the unique Emperor are the ones which fit better with classic HQ adventures, that's how I consider it in my games. However if finally the new lore for TOW fits with our HQ, I would consider it just a so lucky coincidence, I guess probably will happen something different, unfortunatelly. There are too many years since Warhammer Fantasy Battles 3rd Edition was released.


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Re: Overview of the Old World

Postby Cael Darkhollow » Friday December 29th, 2023 8:44pm

HispaZargon wrote:Thanks Cael Darkhollow, good to see you around here again... yes, the arrival of The Old World looks exciting for Warhammer lovers, but I am not sure if the new lore that GW will define will fit well with classic HeroQuest.

I have always agreed with your theory of considering Prince Magnus as Magnus the Pious and so on, for sure the years after becoming him the unique Emperor are the ones which fit better with classic HQ adventures, that's how I consider it in my games. However if finally the new lore for TOW fits with our HQ, I would consider it just a so lucky coincidence, I guess probably will happen something different, unfortunately.

As very little classic HQ contradicts classic WH I think there wouldn't be much in the way of contradiction with old HQ material in the new Old World products (Besides the notorious HQ novels maps), I could be wrong.
Also something to consider, besides the heroes interacting with the Emperor sometime AFTER the new setting is set to begin in 2276 (2304-onwards to last possible date of his death) they had little to no effect on the grand overall history of things in WH, so nothing in classic HQ could contradict W:TOW perhaps... This would predate any official HQ events by at least 25 years, so potential conflicts might be lower.
at any rate I will be buying it and reporting back any relevant HQ titbits or contradictions. I haven't bought GW products beyond a few random minis for years in protest to their pricing and the loss of Fantasy Battles but I certainly will be buying their books again; I love the Old World and of course view my HeroQuest as part of it. I have thousands of fantasy figures collected for 30+ years so I don't need to be going broke buying their new ones.

Took me a minute to even remember my password as it has been too long indeed since my last log in, (although I lurk from time to time) Well met again my friend.
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Re: Overview of the Old World

Postby Kurgan » Sunday December 31st, 2023 3:09am

Without the deeds of the heroes and Mentor, the Empire would have suffered much more (and even been destroyed) by Zargon's forces... thus in an odd twist of fate in violation of the laws of causality, despite the timeline of actual product releases, in a way, the "old" Warhammer world owes its continued existence to HeroQuest.


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Re: Overview of the Old World

Postby j_dean80 » Sunday January 7th, 2024 6:55am

Cael Darkhollow wrote:
HispaZargon wrote:Thanks Cael Darkhollow, good to see you around here again... yes, the arrival of The Old World looks exciting for Warhammer lovers, but I am not sure if the new lore that GW will define will fit well with classic HeroQuest.

I have always agreed with your theory of considering Prince Magnus as Magnus the Pious and so on, for sure the years after becoming him the unique Emperor are the ones which fit better with classic HQ adventures, that's how I consider it in my games. However if finally the new lore for TOW fits with our HQ, I would consider it just a so lucky coincidence, I guess probably will happen something different, unfortunately.

As very little classic HQ contradicts classic WH I think there wouldn't be much in the way of contradiction with old HQ material in the new Old World products (Besides the notorious HQ novels maps), I could be wrong.
Also something to consider, besides the heroes interacting with the Emperor sometime AFTER the new setting is set to begin in 2276 (2304-onwards to last possible date of his death) they had little to no effect on the grand overall history of things in WH, so nothing in classic HQ could contradict W:TOW perhaps... This would predate any official HQ events by at least 25 years, so potential conflicts might be lower.
at any rate I will be buying it and reporting back any relevant HQ titbits or contradictions. I haven't bought GW products beyond a few random minis for years in protest to their pricing and the loss of Fantasy Battles but I certainly will be buying their books again; I love the Old World and of course view my HeroQuest as part of it. I have thousands of fantasy figures collected for 30+ years so I don't need to be going broke buying their new ones.

Took me a minute to even remember my password as it has been too long indeed since my last log in, (although I lurk from time to time) Well met again my friend.


The pre-order was released yesterday at noon my time. I logged in just 2 hours later and most was already sold out, including the rulebook I was hoping to grab. I thought pre-order was to gauge the interest to see how many to make?
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Re: Overview of the Old World

Postby j_dean80 » Saturday January 20th, 2024 3:47pm

Can anyone tell me what these are?

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Re: Overview of the Old World

Postby HispaZargon » Saturday January 20th, 2024 5:08pm

Castle Wittgenstein... inside the Empire. More info here:

https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/es/ ... ttgenstein


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