Overview of the Old World

[j_dean80]

So we seem to have a general idea where the Barbarian and Elf hail from. Who is next, the Wizard or Dwarf?

[Kurgan]

The Dwarf (one of them at least) comes from the World's Edge mountains and the Wizard comes from some island, right? (maybe not the Wizard's birthplace, just where he was trained, if the novel Screaming Spectre is any clue).

[Pancho]

I think we’ll have to be even less exact when pinpointing the origins of those two, as there is even less to go by.

Like Kurgan said the dwarf is from the Worlds Edge Mountains, which doesn’t really help too much as they are extremely vast and have lots of Dwarf holds.
The Wizard is training on the small Island of Truillon in the HQ novels, but those aren’t really canon and Truillon was made up by Dave Morris, I don’t think it has any basis in Warhammer lore.

[Davane]

Don't suppose there was a map with that novel? I don't recognise the name of the island, and in general, all the wizards are Imperial Wizards of various disciplines. Of course, WHQ says that the Wizard is more like a High Elf mage than a college Battle Wizard, so maybe Trullion is an island off of Ulthuan or something? Plus, you have to differentiate between where the Wizard comes from and where he was trained - because all of the Imperial colleges are in Altdorf, but students for them are from across the entire Old World...

[Kurgan]

The novel's map is posted on an earlier page (see the folded book pages that say they are loosely based at the bottom text. The Wizard mentioned in Fellowship of Four is a different Wizard than the young protagonist Wizard in Screaming Spectre. At least one of the Wizards could be from an island or from some other place, and if his origins are mysterious, I'm cool with that, since Wizards in general are mysterious. But they all seem to be mortal human beings, not quasi-divine beings like in Tolkien's mythos.

As to saying that the novels "aren't canon" says who? I mean, other than in the opinion of some fans because the map doesn't match exactly the Warhammer map (it shows stuff north of the map area of the ROTWL EU map) but doesn't match the Advanced HQ map for those areas. There's a debate over what ought to be "canon" for HQ, but has there ever been any official statement from Stephen Baker, from Hasbro, from Games Workshop (in White Dwarf magazine?), from anyone in any kind of "authority" or level of officialness? If not, then it seems its up for grabs. If I want to say only the sticker album is canon, then I can have that opinion, while someone else can say I'm full of it and their view of canon is true, etc.

I think the fact that the novels bear the official brand and include quests intended to be used with the Game System, and are released in the UK (birthplace of the game) indicates they were intended, at least at the time, to be just as "canon" as anything else in the franchise. If someone has contrary evidence (other than "well it doesn't fit Warhammer fantasy 3rd/4th edition enough") I'd love to see it. If you don't think it adds to the discussion here, feel free to start a new thread or just send me a PM.

[Cael Darkhollow]

I think we’ll have to be even less exact when pinpointing the origins of those two, as there is even less to go by.

Like Kurgan said the dwarf is from the Worlds Edge Mountains, which doesn’t really help too much as they are extremely vast and have lots of Dwarf holds.

Oh I don't know, I think we can get a lot more specific than that...
While we never got a dwarf specific HQ quest pack (unless you consider Kellar's Keep as such) we still can make several educated guesses as to the possible homeland of the HQ dwarf hero within the World's Edge Mountains.

Explicitly stated he is from the World's Edge mountains so we can automatically eliminate any relatively recent dwarf holds in the Grey or Black Mountains, or Barak Varr the Sea Gate.

Also, the sundered dwarfs, descendants from lost holds of the World's Edge Mountains in dark ages past that are now living in the realms of men (inspired by the Hobbit) can be excluded even though they would eagerly seek adventuring, these former holds have long been lost beyond even the long lifespan of dwarfs some millennia ago, so few could claim the World's edge mountains as anything beyond their ancestral home. the statement "from the World's Edge Mountains" doesn't meet that claim.
The mighty dwarf kingdom of old that delved the breadth and length of the World's Edge Mountains was severely weakened after the long War of Vengeance also known as the War of the Beard, which was fought against the elves, occurring long ago beginning in the year -1997 and finishing in -1600, hundreds of years before Sigmar founded the Empire. (inspired by Tolkien's war against the elves in Middle Earth for the treasure necklace Nauglamír.)
Some 100 years later circa -1500 was known as the Time of Woes when their vast kingdom was finally broken and many ancient dwarven holds were lost. The Underway, a mighty underground passage linking holds to each other was riven by volcanoes and earthquakes and invaded by the many enemies of the dwarf race who took many of the dwarf diggings for their own forever. Several holds fell to goblins, orcs, skaven or vampires. Thousands of years have gone by since most of these holds were taken from the dwarfs, giving their enemies ample time to permanently entrench their own occupations; far too long for the HQ dwarf to claim as his home any of the lost holds if we place HQ at 2304-2330's during the early years of Emperor Magnus's reign.
Karak Varn at the junction of the World's Edge and Black mountains also known as Cragmere and the location of the Kellar's Keep questbook is directly inspired by Tolkien's lost Dwarf hold of Khazad-dûm, renamed Moria.

The known occupied dwarf holds in the World's Edge Mountains are:

Karak Kadrin the Slayer Keep, is home only to Dwarf slayers who have taken an oath to die in combat to avenge or assuage some loss or grievance. Pride and honor are everything to a dwarf and if they are slighted or offended they often never recover or forgive. We know for certain the dwarf hero of HeroQuest can't be from there as he has taken no such oath, as slayers forsake armor and dye their hair orange to show all other dwarfs they have taken the vow to die killing as many monstrous foes of the dwarfs as they can take with them. Only the most unsuccessful in fulfilling their oath survive for long or ironically those extremely skilled in combat who then are forced to seek out even more deadly and terrifying foes to finally achieve the combat death they seek to redeem their honor in their own eyes. The Dwarf in the White Dwarf Quest: Halls of Durrag Dol that is an optional HQ player character, Kili Thekkrsson is a troll slayer, and COULD hail from Karak Kadrin.

The dwarf hold of Zhufbar is known for it's technology and innovation, making wonderous machines. Engineers and guilds of various crafts are the mainstay of the hold, and it is the primary source of Dwarven trade with the Empire. While many dwarfs from Zhubar can be found inside the Empire teaching stonework, black powder gunnery, smithing, mining, gemcutting, engineering etc. or simply as trading merchants, the dwarf figure seems much more traditional in his accoutrement than the new-fangled dwarfs tech of Zhufbar. I would rank Zhubar as not very likely for the more traditional looking HeroQuest dwarf's home.

Karaz-A-Karak or Everpeak is the home of the high king of the dwarfs the remaining core of the shattered Dwarf kingdom, and is fairly insular in their relations with the outside world beyond their undying gratitude for the Emperor Sigmar for saving the High King, who gave Sigmar the Ghal Maraz warhammer (inspiring the namesake of the entire setting) and forever after counting men as their allies. Their haughty demeanor is similar to the Mountain Dwarves of D&D rarely dealing with other surface races and even looking down on the more common Hill Dwarves closer to the surface.
Few wandering dwarfs to the surface realms beyond official envoys of the high king are likely to ever leave the high king's hold or leave off defending the countless corridors and passageways underneath Everpeak unless in great need. Staunch traditionalists and forever grudge holders (the Great Book of Grudges is held here) with extremely long memories, they favor tried and true traditions and methods that have held for hundreds or thousands of years rather than trying new things such as adventuring for treasure with manlings or even dreaming of befriending an elf. Adventurers such as the HeroQuest dwarf hailing from Karaz-A-Karak seems very remote.

The surface stronghold held at Karak Eight Peaks by the the Throng of Belegar, is besieged on all sides by enemies in their desperate attempt to regain their lost hold. Surrounded and outnumbered, they have no dwarfs to spare for frivolity or wanderlust, they are locked in a grim battle of pride and death to reclaim their ancestral home or die trying.

Far to the south adjacent to the badlands is Karak Azul the Iron Peak home to the best weapons smithies, runesmiths and armorers. This one does make an interesting possibility for the hearth-keep of an adventuring dwarf, if it wasn't many leagues far away from the Empire making any word or summons from Mentor weeks or months late in reply.

Likewise, far to the north in the World's Edge Mountains is the isolated hold of Kraka Drak, whose human neighbors are the fierce Norse not the Empire. Many hundreds of leagues separate them from their nearest dwarven kin and they have taken on customs and language of Norsca that estrange them from their southern distant relatives. They only nominally hold the High King as the leader of all dwarfs having recently reestablished contact with the more Southern holds as the need for all dwarfs to stand together is great to preserve their dwindling race. It would be rare indeed to see such a norse dwarf so far from his home. Their style and battle attire is much influenced by their viking-like neighbors and the fierce cold of the north. I doubt our dwarf hero is from the far north based on appearance alone.

Karak Azgul also far to the distant south of the Empire, was destroyed and invaded by a dragon, now known as Dragon Crag. The dragon finally slain, the delve has been subsequently invaded by skaven, orcs and goblins in search of the stolen dragon hoard who desecrate the former home of the dwarfs as their own. A small number of Dwarf gatekeepers who prevent the treasures of their ancestors from being stolen away live at the surface and guard the entrance to this dangerous dungeon, attempting to probe it's depths for lost but not forgotten treasures to return them to the hands of dwarfs. Rather than a homeland, it is a better destination for a dwarf adventurer to travel to attempting to earn fame, riches and glory...

Countless small Dwarven outposts, lookouts, settlements, colonies and mineworks dot the World's Edge Mountains; our dwarf could reasonably come from any of these tiny enclaves of dwarfs. Destiny favors the few, however and a mighty hero of humble origins seems slightly less likely than a dwarf hero or champion from a renowned hold. These dwarfs might not have access to venerable weapons and armor of their ancestors passed from generation to generation, being from poorer stock. The painting used for the HQ dwarf on the character card is actually the first incarnation of The White Dwarf, the mascot of the whole Games Workshop company, and the namesake of it's flagship magazine. His armor and weapon seem ancient and very valuable, his beard is long and white, hardly a fresh beardling starting off with little more than the clothes on his back seeking treasure. In fact, in Warhammer, veterans are called longbeards, and the model is suitable for that unit. The painting is slightly incongruous perhaps to a starting adventurer in our board game, but perhaps no more so than an elf who might be hundreds of years old as well.

Make of that what you will; while true we cannot pinpoint with any certainty his home location in the World's Edge Mountains we can narrow some possibilities based on available Warhammer resources considerably.

[Cael Darkhollow]

While contemplating the HQ wizard hero's origins another interesting thought occurred to me:
Mentor seems much more like a title than a name...
such as teacher, professor, instructor, sensei, sifu, master, magister, wise one etc. than his actual name, leaving open the possibility that he could be practically anybody. Who was Mentor and what is HIS name?

Now I am not dredging up the old Mentor=Zargon/Morcar argument, based on possible misinterpretations of the game screen art and the misleading illustrations in the sticker album. I don't believe that nonsense anyway as it clearly states that Zargon/Morcar was his former pupil obviously indicating a completely separate person, and it makes zero sense for Mentor himself to send heroes to combat "Morcar/Zargon" if in fact he lied and is the same person...

But who could Mentor actually be? Could it be Teclis the High Elf mage in disguise? We know he helped Emperor Magnus establish the Colleges of Magic after the great war during the first year of his reign in 2304. How long was he there before or how long did he stay on the Old World continent after the war before returning to the elven home isle? Does that idea conflict with having sufficient time to teach a student to become formidable in the ways of magic before his student turned to the dark side and fought for Chaos perhaps commanding many forces in the great war or the aftermath?
Could he be an obscure wizard in hiding from before Magnus was crowned during the somewhat lawless period of multiple claimant emperors or afterwards when magic practitioners in the Empire were forbidden by public consensus, zealots and townships under their own semi-autonomous authoritative rule and often burned at the stake for being possible followers of Chaos?
Could he be a newly summoned instructor of the colleges hired to teach the ways of magic to the Empire's fledgling battle wizards?
Is he the first dean or High Mage of the Colleges and hence the whole of the Empire?
How important is he really in the Old World and by association his student Zargon/Morcar? Is he an arch-wizard and his pupil a great Chaos sorcerer, the commander of vast forces of evil or are they relatively small overall in the great events of the WH timeline? Perhaps Zargon/Morcar is just one of many commanders of Chaos troops or a Chaos Warband in the Great War or the aftermath rather than the source of all Chaos evil during his time?

I think the wizard hero in HeroQuest learned his dweomercraft prior to the establishment of the Colleges of Magic as he is using Elemental Magic in HQ, while the lore taught at the colleges is based on the winds of magic separated into distinct types based on colors. The wizard hero figure from Advanced HeroQuest actually looks like the same mage from HQ just slightly older, and that game uses the Colleges way of battle magic, an important clue to the timeline placement of both HQ and AHQ perhaps. Adding more types of spells for the HQ wizard to use in Wizards of Morcar makes sense as he progresses in his training.

[Cael Darkhollow]

I think the fact that the novels bear the official brand and include quests intended to be used with the Game System, and are released in the UK (birthplace of the game) indicates they were intended, at least at the time, to be just as "canon" as anything else in the franchise. If someone has contrary evidence (other than "well it doesn't fit Warhammer fantasy 3rd/4th edition enough") I'd love to see it. If you don't think it adds to the discussion here, feel free to start a new thread or just send me a PM.

Agreed. I think the HQ novels add much to the lore and consider them full canon.

[iKarith]

Agreed. I think the HQ novels add much to the lore and consider them full canon.

Are these available somewhere by chance? I'm guessing maybe not because … who'd bother for novels for a game that was quite old at the time people started scanning such things … but I tried to price them and … I could buy TWO game systems for the price of one novel.

Not available at my local library, and I tend to work better with eBooks anyway.

[Davane]

I think the wizard hero in HeroQuest learned his dweomercraft prior to the establishment of the Colleges of Magic as he is using Elemental Magic in HQ, while the lore taught at the colleges is based on the winds of magic separated into distinct types based on colors. The wizard hero figure from Advanced HeroQuest actually looks like the same mage from HQ just slightly older, and that game uses the Colleges way of battle magic, an important clue to the timeline placement of both HQ and AHQ perhaps. Adding more types of spells for the HQ wizard to use in Wizards of Morcar makes sense as he progresses in his training.

According to the belated Realm of Sorcery [links to auto-download -mod edit], Elemental colleges and elementalism exists alongside college magic. Although college magic is supposedly the official "battle magic" of the Empire, many of the older magic colleges, including these elemental colleges, have refused to be closed down and continue to take on students.

Since the Wizard takes three elemental schools, we can work out what elemental college the Wizard might have gone to by looking at what school they DID NOT take, because it can be assumed that such colleges might teach basic elementalism for the allied (not opposed schools). It's just a case of not changing spell sets between games. Alternatively, you can assume that the wizard is just an elementalist, but doesn't necessarily use all four elements, all the time. Finally, unspecialised elementalism is often the basis of Hedge Magic in the Warhammer World, so the wizard might either be untrained, or may have been apprenticed to a hedge wizard or witch from one of the more rural areas of the Empire, or maybe from Bretonnia.

The Protection and Detection spells from WoM are much more like the utility spells that the WHQ "Warrior-Wizard" use, which is typically broken down into Attack, Defence, Healing, and Special (Utility) spells. Thus, any Wizard using these could be considered a Warrior-Warrior wizard, from an adventuring magical college, apprenticed to another Wizard-Warrior, or maybe even a self-taught Hedge Wizard.

Finally, the spells of Darkness sound a lot like a beginning of Dark magic, which is often used by renegade Wizards. You might even be tempted to allow a really "off-the-wagon" Dark Wizard to use Chaos Magic spells, but give him a risk of turning to Chaos when casting them - maybe by rolling a on a combat die rolled when casting such spells...

Apparently, Nuln has the Eldritch College, a college specialising in Elementalism. In Stirland, just outside Wurtbad, is the College of Earth, whilst the Air College is in the Grey Mountains by Axe Bite Pass. The Fire College is in Bechafen, in Ostermark. Finally, there's Castle Water in the Reikland. There are also numerous minor magical colleges throughout the Empire as well.