Comparative points system

[wallydubbs]

So I've looked at each of the heroes stats and starting abilities from the base set, hoping to find each hero at equal measure. Using Body Points, attack dice and defense dice all equal to 1 point. Mind points, since they rarely come into play are worth half a point, 1 set of spells is worth 1.5 points and the Dwarf's superior ability to disarm traps is worth 1 point. Mind you, I'm mainly focusing on the US version.

Barbarian- 8 BP, 1MP, 3AD, 2DD, 0SS (Spell Sets), 0TD (Trap Disarm) (8+1+3+2+0+0=14)
Dwarf- 7BP, 1.5MP, 2AD, 2DD, 0SS, 1TD (7+1.5+2+2+0+1=13.5)
Elf- 6BP, 2MP, 2AD, 2DD, 1.5SS, 0TD (6+2+2+2+1.5+0=13.5)
Wizard- 4BP, 3MP, 1AD, 2DD, 4.5SS, 0TD (4+3+1+2+4.5+0=14.5)

So starting out the Wizard has the edge on points system, but he's also handicapped because he can't wear armor or carry heavy weapons.
Upgrading a hero with weapons and armor from the armory will give them extra attack and defense points equal to the added dice. However weapons that can attack diagonally double the number of spaces a hero can attack, adding a .5 to that weapon. A tool Kit gives the heroes a chance to disarm traps, but not as high as the Dwarf's, giving its worth only .5 point. Crossbows can help in range but be a hindrance in small areas so it's only worth 3.5. Plate Mail slows the hero down significantly but increases defence, it's worth 1.5.
Artifacts:
Talisman of Lore- .5MP
Wizard's Cloak- 1DD
Borin's Armor- 2DD
Wand of Magic- .5SS
Orc's Bane- 2.5AD
Wizard's Staff- 2.5AD
Spirit Blade- 3.5AD
Spell Ring- .5SS

So, when factoring in the heroes potential to max out with weapons, armor and artifacts we get:
Barbarian- 8BP, 1.5MP, 3.5AD, 6DD, 0SS, 1TD (8+1.5+3.5+6+0+.5=19.5)
Dwarf- 7BP, 2MP, 3.5AD, 6DD, 0SS, 1.5TD (7+2+3.5+6+0+1=19.5)
Elf- 6BP, 2.5MP, 3.5AD, 6DD, 2.5SS, .5TD,(6+2.5+3.5+6+2.5+.5= 21)
Wizard- 4BP, 3.5MP, 2.5AD, 3DD, 5.5SS, .5TD, (4+3.5+2.5+3+5.5+.5=19)

Potentially the Ef has the greatest chance to max out, however there is only 1 of each artifact and to balance the characters:
Barbarian- Spirit Blade, Helemet, Chainmail, Shield, Talisman of Lore, Tool Kit (8+1.5+3.5+5+0+.5=18.5)
Dwarf- Battle Axe, Borin's Armor, Helmet, Superior Trap Disarm (7+1.5+4+5+0+1=18.5)
Elf- Long Sword, Chainmail, Shield, Helmet, 1 Spell Set, Tool Kit (6+2+3.5+5+1.5+.5=18.5)
Wizard- Wizard's Staff, Wizard's Cloak, 3 Spell Sets, Spell Ring, Wand of Magic, Tool Kit (4+3+2.5+3+5.5+.5=18.5)

Although I'd prefer the Elf to use the crossbow and dawn Plate Mail to fight from a distance his stats would only amount to 18, but I'd like to get them all to amount to the same measure.

[mitchiemasha]

16... 16... 16... 16...

Barbarian: "B8M2:10" "Weapons Y:1(A2D2:4)5" "Skill +1A:1" = 16
Dwarf: "B7M3:10" "Weapons Y:1 (A2D2:4)5" "Skill Traps:1" = 16
Elf: "B6M4:10" "Weapons Y:1 (A2D2:4)5" "Magic:1" = 16
Wizard: "B4M6:10" "Weapons N:0 (A1D2:3)3" "Magic:3" = 16

B+M=10
A+D+S=6

S=Spells and/or Skill

[wallydubbs]

Yeah, but Mind points rarely factor in, so I don't think they deserve the same value as the body, attack and defense.
Plus, by the time all the heroes max out the Barbarian would have the least amount of stats.
This would also suggest that the dwarfs disarm ability is equal to 3 spells...

[Anderas]

Yeah I tried that for monsters some years ago. It is not so easy, really. Many real life in-game aspects go into the equation. For monsters it was the fact that two Goblins are more than twice as good than one, and four are more than twice as good than two. In the end it was not solvable as a ranking "this is better than that", also there was no continuous relation between Monster Numbers or Dice Numbers or both, and strength, without relation to the Heroes. It is maybe best represented as decision tree.

Since I tried that, I am fan of rising BP instead of combat dice, by the way. And of NA monster stats.

The dwarf may disarm traps... No one does it: a skull on one combat die is too bad a probability. In the end he is just a weaker Barbarian. In my system, his disarm ability gets better with the toolkit ( shield and skull is success) and then gets another boost with the powder keg, to make that relation of yours true.

The Wizard is good in theory, but then he has to stay back and can die from the first treasure search... so again, something's lacking. So I copymade loads of spells for him.

[benvoliothefirst]

Yeah, but Mind points rarely factor in, so I don't think they deserve the same value as the body, attack and defense.
Plus, by the time all the heroes max out the Barbarian would have the least amount of stats.
This would also suggest that the dwarfs disarm ability is equal to 3 spells...

Mind points being underused is a failure of the quests themselves and not the system, in my humble opinion. Both the Wizards of Morcar and our own HQ25th sets seek to remedy this. I'm sure there are others.

[mitchiemasha]

I don't think they deserve the same value as the body, attack and defense.

I disagree, the mind points do factor in, even if they don't appear to. In order to have a specific skill the hero must have higher mind. An elf can have 1 element of magic and weapons. A dwarf can have weapons and disable traps. The wizard sacrifices weapons and used all his 6 mind (intelligence ability) to master 3 elements of Magic.

by the time all the heroes max out the Barbarian would have the least amount of stats.

This is why i see the Barbarians extra Ad6 on start as a +1Ad6 (not him starting with the broadsword). Which ever weapon he comes to buy, own, he adds +1Ad6.

This would also suggest that the dwarfs disarm ability is equal to 3 spells...

Yes... As Anderas points too, his ability trumps the tool kit. I take it further back to original HQ, "And can always disarm traps that you find" The Dwarf doesn't need to roll, he simply searches for traps, if there is 1, it's removed, his search action is him disarming it. If the heroes know there already is 1... again, searching for traps, is how the Dwarf removes it. No need to be adjacent etc... What ever movement would be required to reach what ever trigger mechanism, where ever that may be is considered done in the action. No need to represent it in model placement. Why the area needs to be cleared of monsters before searches.

To give the Tool Kit more spice, I allow this to be used on treasure deck traps. A last minute attempt to save ones self.

Also, sprung pit traps can't be removed. We have rope to handle them.

[wallydubbs]

Yeah, but Mind points rarely factor in, so I don't think they deserve the same value as the body, attack and defense.

Mind points being underused is a failure of the quests themselves and not the system, in my humble opinion. Both the Wizards of Morcar and our own HQ25th sets seek to remedy this. I'm sure there are others.

Well the American version made some strides in usage with Choas spell cards. But I like the concept of Magically Sealed doors, requiring mind points to open. US Keller's Keep only somewhat used this in the exit door of The East Gate. I made use of the concept in Melar's Maze and Barak Tor - Borrow of the Witch Lord.

[mitchiemasha]

I believe the UK edition get those in an expansion. There's plenty of room to make Mind more important. Magic doors is a good idea.

[wallydubbs]

I don't think they deserve the same value as the body, attack and defense.

I disagree, the mind points do factor in, even if they don't appear to. In order to have a specific skill the hero must have higher mind. An elf can have 1 element of magic and weapons. A dwarf can have weapons and disable traps. The wizard sacrifices weapons and used all his 6 mind (intelligence ability) to master 3 elements of Magic.

Unfortunately I still cannot agree with this. If the Dwarf loses a mind point he still has the superior ability to disarm traps.
If the Barbarian gains a mind point through Talisman of Lore he does not gain the ability to disarm traps.

The Elf and Wizard both exceed 3MP, but neither have a trap disarming ability. And if they gain or lose mind points nothing really changes for them.

So mind points really aren't as valuable as body points, attack and defense dice.

However certain house rules can make use of mind points better then the game system did.

[Pancho]

Another good way to bring Mind Points into the game is with spell scrolls, with a mind roll required before a scroll can be “read”, I.e. cast.