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ring on the fimir foot

Discuss general topics relating to HeroQuest that don't fit well in the categories below.

Re: ring on the fimir foot

Postby Cael Darkhollow » April 7th, 2021, 12:18 pm

:banana: :banana: :bites-lip:
cynthialee wrote:I think it is meant to just be an anklet as adornment.
But I like to think they are manacle remnants.


torilen wrote:I know nothing about the history of the fimir, so I'm just spouting here...
I would imagine it to be the remains of shackles of some sort. Fimir could
have been slaves and those are the reminders of their slavery, to never allow
it to happen again. All adults put them on at a certain age.


cynthialee wrote:Fimir are pretty tough dudes, not slave material.

Here is some information from Wiki on them:
Fimir society is divided into a caste system, consisting of Meargh, the Dirach, the warriors, and the Shearl. The Meargh - also known as witch-hags - are the leaders of Fimir colonies, as well as the only females.[1] A Meargh would typically also be a very powerful user of magic. The Dirach - described as "daemon-friends" - are a caste of wizards specialising in the worshipping of Daemons. The warrior caste - consisting of Fimm (warriors), Fianna Fimm (elite warriors), and the various nobles - take the brunt of raiding and fighting. The Shearls - the slaves of a Fimir settlement - exist only to work and die. The ruling Meargh hold the clans together. In the event of a Meargh's death, the Fimir of her stronghold separate, either working as mercenaries for other evil creatures or seeking out another clan to join. However the Meargh is sterile and therefore unable to breed. So as to replenish their numbers the Fimir kidnap young fertile human women to use as breeding stock.


WHFB 3rd ed. wrote:"They have tails, the shape of which varies depending upon their social standing and age. Warriors have tails which end in clubs and maces, for example whilst nobles may have spiked or slashing tails. The demon-fiends (the caste of wizards, the Dirach) differ from others in having horns and smooth tails."
p.217 WHFB 3rd edition. Witch Queens also have smooth tails and horns.
HQ fimir are warrior caste identifiable by their club tails, Shearls have different tail morphology (presumably, the text doesnt say specifically.)

WH Armies 3rd ed. wrote:"If the Meargh should die without a successor, the clan will disperse, with the various retinues of Fimm warriors setting out on a death-quest as they seek a new Meargh or their ultimate annihilation. Sometimes a Meargh will banish a noble from the clan, who will then take his followers with him. It is such restless and disturbed bands of Fimir which make common cause with other Evil races as allies.
Only the Warrior Fimm and the elite Fianna Fimm (retainers of the Fimm nobles) appear as allies. Such contingents will certainly contain Dirach wizards or possibly even a Meargh, but the wretched shearls, as the Fimir slave caste is known, perish with the sundering of the clan."

Warhammer Armies p.136 WHFB 3rd edition
While slave fimir do exist in their society, they are never found outside the clan and "perish with the sundering of the clans."
The HeroQuest fimir are warrior fimm based on their tail morphology and willingness to ally with or employ as mercenaries for other evil races, however, in the Warhammer book illustrations the warrior fimm are unarmored while the Fianna Fimm (elite warriors) have the round belly plate armor of HQ fimirs and are armed with axes, but with spiky tails instead of clubbed. The Fimm Warlord also has belly plate armor and a spiky "morning star" instead of "mace or club" like tail.
Image

Image

Fimir models were made for Warhammer but were too large on monster sized bases but with "man" sized stats which made them weak troops for their base size (allowing more enemy troops to engage at once in WH) which made them very unpopular and poor sellers. Possibly the reason they were eliminated from 4th edition on.

Image

The only WH model that was manufactured in the correct size (slightly taller than a human) has the club tail and belly armor, with a double headed battleaxe, very similar to the HQ Fimir.

Image

in the back of the HQ game system quest book the monster description reads: "Fimir These one-eyed, lizard-like creatures are stronger even than Orcs. They are sometimes found leading small bands of Orcs and Goblins but are dangerous enough even when encountered singly."
the left leg ring of the HQ model must be jewelry rather than a shackle, as Fimir are the leaders when encountered with orcs and goblins, not a captured monster forced to fight.
Image
Last edited by Cael Darkhollow on April 7th, 2021, 12:46 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: ring on the fimir foot

Postby Kurgan » April 7th, 2021, 12:32 pm

Cool stuff. There are STL files out there that look just like the classic HQ minis but with variant poses and gear. I really want to print out some of those Warhammer fimirs that have the axe facing out forward, they look great (just need the HQ style base).

The anklet and the bare feet are little features I didn't notice at first but I am okay with. The female elf looks like she's just going on a little hiking trip as opposed into battle though, and so while I respect the original design, I'm glad I have a reaper bones mini to use in her place!

The ATOH Ogres are like stronger than average monsters (they look like mutanted orcs... representing gluttony and violence), but for the EQP I prefer the mountain of muscle/fat that are the Reaper Ogres. That looks more like a 10 body point monster to me!


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Re: ring on the fimir foot

Postby Cael Darkhollow » April 7th, 2021, 5:48 pm

The Fimir were designed and backstoried by Graeme Davis, concept illustrations by Tony Ackland, Paul Bonner and Jes Goodwin, the prototype miniature 1987 was sculpted by Jes Goodwin. All based on a Alan Lee painting of a one-eyed Formorian found on the back cover of a tatty novel: "Irish Folk and Fairy Tales, vol. 2” by Michael Scott. The Warhammer Fimir figures 1988 that were too large were sculpted by Nick Bibby. I have yet to discover who actually sculpted the HeroQuest fimir figure but it is very similar to the prototype figure by Jes Goodwin. I found this excellent write up on the history of the Fimir. Well worth a read.
http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2014/04/07/bizarre-bestiary-fimir/
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Re: ring on the fimir foot

Postby Kurgan » April 7th, 2021, 6:50 pm

Nice link. Yeah that prototype miniature of the Fimir I would love to print up in plastic with a HQ sized base. The classic HQ fimir is just perfect, but to have something like that as an alternate pose would be fun.


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Re: ring on the fimir foot

Postby Cael Darkhollow » April 7th, 2021, 7:52 pm

"Fimir miniatures were included in the HeroQuest board game developed by GW for Milton Bradley." very interesting statement by the fimir designer Graeme Davis on who did what for HQ development, in stark contrast to the Stephen Baker "I did it all, it was my idea! muahaha" style quotes about HeroQuest we usually see in interviews...
https://graemedavis.wordpress.com/2012/01/15/out-of-the-mists/
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Re: ring on the fimir foot

Postby Kurgan » April 7th, 2021, 8:44 pm

Did Stephen Baker ever actually claim he designed the miniatures though?


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Re: ring on the fimir foot

Postby Cael Darkhollow » April 7th, 2021, 10:17 pm

Kurgan wrote:Did Stephen Baker ever actually claim he designed the miniatures though?

No, but he did make grandiose claims to have "designed most of it", whatever that means. Like the whole thing was his idea. quoted directly saying GW only did the minis and the art.
"How did Games Workshop get involved?"
'Initially we just wanted them to do the plastic miniatures, but they've had so much experience in the fantasy field we decided to draw on their expertise.'
Were they involved in the actual design of the game?
'No. Their input in the basic version was the artwork and the manufacture of the miniatures,"
interview with Baker excerpt

"...the HeroQuest board game developed by GW for Milton Bradley." sounds more to me like Milton Bradley commissioned the game from GW, perhaps with an outline based on Warhammer provided by Baker (a former GW employee) coupled with some game mechanics rules (Dice, board layout, cards, movement/combat/spell rules?) from MB, then GW added the backstory, setting, game design, artwork, layout, figure sculpts, etc.

Ansell wrote:Stephen Baker, Roger Ford, and Ben Rathbone had damn all to do with HQ's developement. SB had produced a poor derivative of D&D. GW had to be called in to perform a rescue mission and deliver an actual game. We did that: we were paid for delivering an actual game that actually worked. We used nothing from the SB version. Stephen Baker managed one of our shops. I have no idea who Ford and Rathbone are.

We always sculpted models in an open, casual, questing and experimental way: we were always looking for a better way forwards. That's all there is to it: we always did our absolute best in the time available. Moving forward fast and fearless always gives the best results. We never gave a toss about the thickness of a sword or any other petty detail: we just wanted every part of what we did to look as good as we could manage in the time that was available.

Taken with Bryan Ansell's statement about stolen credit for HeroQuest, Davis's statement implies a lot. I think that Stephen Baker's actual contribution is somewhat murky given that he has no recognizable "fingerprint" of clear indicative style or supporting documentation or whatever to support his version of HQ's origins, while GamesWorkshop's style is readily apparent, easily identifiable, and all over the HQ finished products. I would love to be a time traveler and uncover the true history and extent of whose contributions are whose and the actual extent of GW and MB's collaborations in relation to HeroQuest and Battlemasters. I'm not ready to call anybody a liar, (I wasn't there how would I know) but we have two conflicting accounts it seems for the development of HQ, from interviews with Baker contradicting interviews with various Games Workshop designers who worked on the project.
This discussion is better suited to the Baker interview thread rather than peculiarities of the fimir miniature though...

I am still searching for confirmation of who exactly designed (original base art & sculpt) of the HQ fimir.
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Re: ring on the fimir foot

Postby Kurgan » April 7th, 2021, 11:33 pm

I started to wonder if maybe Baker picked the designs (that were created by others), sort of like a "George-Lucas-working-on-the-Prequels" way, but the two statements seem irreconcilable. We need a "Secret History of Hero Quest" book, methinks!

I'd love to see the Stephen Baker prototype(s).


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Re: ring on the fimir foot

Postby iKarith » April 8th, 2021, 8:25 am

I dunno, it may be a case of claim credit for a design once and then reuse it again and again, but other SB-credited games seem to have some commonalities with HeroQuest. A look at the HeroScape 2nd edition rules will seem pretty familiar to HQ players, I think. (But then, from what little I know of GW from a couple of their board games, it may be borrowing from those as well…)
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Re: ring on the fimir foot

Postby whitebeard » April 8th, 2021, 10:30 am

iKarith wrote:I dunno, it may be a case of claim credit for a design once and then reuse it again and again, but other SB-credited games seem to have some commonalities with HeroQuest. A look at the HeroScape 2nd edition rules will seem pretty familiar to HQ players, I think. (But then, from what little I know of GW from a couple of their board games, it may be borrowing from those as well…)


I thought HQ was the FIRST such board game... But SpaceHulk seems to have released at the same time (1989) and the game play and rules there are quite a bit different (very heavy tactical and accounting with tokens). Then came all others, WarhammerQuest, SpaceHulk, etc. So who is borrowing from who here? Independent of who wrote what parts of HQ, anything by GW with rules resembling HQ is borrowing from HQ.

The essential rules component to HQ is the Spells and Artifacts override Basic Rules and the Quests override everything. And this means you can create a unique experience for each quest. The almost constant use of this feature is what makes the HQ Basic Game System so awesome and the KK expansion so boring.

I'm not familiar with the ORIGINAL space hulk. Is there a lot customization / game bending special rules in the missions? In the new version I have, there is a good amount of diversity first mission has random starting positions. Another mission involves destroying an objective. and another involves recovering a drone (C.A.T.) which has a cool rule.

I would say that if the new expansion from Steven Baker, "Prophecy of Telor," plays like the Basic Game System, then we have our answer. Indications from his release of "Rogar's Hall" are that we will not be disappointed.

Conversely should "Prophecy of Telor" feel like an unimaginative slog, we can conclude that the guys behind things like WarhammerQuest had way more input than they are getting credit for.
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