Does Veil of Mist work on Ogres?

[Daedalus]

My call is Veil of Mist allows a Hero to pass an Ogre.

This spell may be cast on any one Hero, including yourself. On the Hero's next move, he may move unseen through spaces that are occupied by monsters.

Veil of Mist allows two things: movement through monster spaces and remaining unseen. Of the two, movement through monsters is primary. Remaining unseen has no mechanical game effect other than not blocking LoS during the Hero's move (not considered in terms of passing an Ogre.)

. . . Ogres are not evil as such. Just permanently hungry and frighteningly violent.. . .

All Ogres occupy one space on the HeroQuest gameboard. No other figure may pass through the same space as the Ogre figure, whether they are good or evil. Once an Ogre blocks a corridor, it stays blocked until he moves or is killed.. . .

The size of an Ogre is assumed to be in play here, but specific physical restrictions aren't included anywhere in the rule.The restriction merely states that no other figure--whether good or evil--may pass through. This could mean that an Ogre is physically capable of allowing another figure to pass, but isn't inclined to do so due to its independent nature (and mass to back up his disposition.)

Since Veil of Mist allows a Hero to pass through monsters despite being "good" in Ogre terms, it still functions and he can ignore the Ogre's (a monster) intent to block all comers. At least, that's one way of judging it possible.

As a house rule,, it could be cool (but more complicated) to instead allow the Ogre to roll one red die for each of its Mind Points. If a 6 is rolled, the spell is broken and the Hero is blocked.

This thread makes me wish there was an Ogre icon for the Inn. Oh well, it probably wouldn't fit anyway.

[Kurgan]

Ah, so maybe the magical spell makes the hero appear like a fellow monster, such that his guard is down and he "allows" the figure to pass, and in this case he thinks he sees another Ogre? Interesting way of viewing it as I like others was imagining it in terms of this guy takes up so much room none may pass (which doesn't stop magical passage of course). So under normal circumstances Heroes are like "let me stand aside so you may pass, my fellow comrade-in-arms..." to each other and similar with the monsters to each other and that's how it's working behind the game mechanic.

I agree with your conclusion, regardless.

This thread makes me wish there was an Ogre icon for the Inn. Oh well, it probably wouldn't fit anyway.

[Daedalus]

I'm not exactly concerned how Veil of Mist gets a Hero past an Ogre other than "magic." I don't think it needs to be as specific as seeing a Hero as another Ogre. For me, it's applying what's in the rules that counts, and I see the good/evil Ogre criteria being superceded by the passing monsters effect of the spell. It needn't be viewed this way, but it satisfies both rules if it's magically possible. Hope that makes sense.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

Assuming that the Ogre's "blocking" property is applicable to Ogres in general rather than a special rule for this Quest Book only, which seems a reasonable assumption, then that is an addition to the rulebook and as has been pointed out earlier the card trumps the rulebook. So strictly speaking I think that Veil of Mist should allow you to pass Ogres.

However for me personally, its less about applying the rules according to the precise wording, and more about applying the spirit of (the intentions behind) the rules.

In general characters (Heroes and Monsters) choose to make room for their friends to pass and actively block their foes from passing. Ogres due to their size are too big to move out of the way to let their friends pass (clearly stated) and Veil of Mist seems to work by preventing your foe from seeing your approach and therefore stopping them from actively blocking your passage, so I would argue that combining these two rules should result in Veil of Mist NOT working on Ogres as, whether they are aware or not aware of your approach, indeed whether they are willing or not willing to make room for you to pass, it isn't physically possible.

Granted you could add the complication of a Hero being able to crawl through an Ogres legs to get passed, but if that was allowed then presumably other monsters of similar sizes to a Hero could also pass by crawling through their legs and that is specifically ruled out.

For my house rules (HeroQuest Gold) I will be classing Ogres as 'Large Monsters' along with Trolls and Gargoyles that come with a set of properties that include this blocking effect and making them harder to push back and I'll be updating my Veil of Mist to state that it doesn't work on 'Large Monsters'.

[Kurgan]

Or would an Ogre under the influence of Sleep be capable of being passed by? I could imagine him slumped over and the nervous hero climbing over his unconscious form to get past... (I also consider a room/corridor freely searchable when the only monster occupying it is magically asleep, though not all digital versions of HeroQuest may agree with me on that detail).

It may seem a little strange now to imagine the Ogre blocking rule applying while the even larger Frozen Horror doesn't cause that to happen, but maybe he's got an even larger "leg gap" to squeeze through under magically assisted circumstances? I guess invent any excuse you want. Of course Ogre blocking was never mentioned in terms of the EQP NA Ogres despite them being even more powerful than their EU equivalents and using the same miniature designs. (then again similar aesthetic doesn't mean much... Swinging Axe Traps in BQP are very different from Swinging Blade Traps in ATOH).

[Markus Darwath]

To me the "simple" question comes down to 'how powerful of magic do you want the spell to be'. One could always interpret the word "veil" as a reference to the barrier between planes, and as such, the 'veil of mist' becomes an extra-dimensional conduit which allows the spell recipient to be incorporeal while moving within the mist. This would perhaps be an extreme interpretation, but would fit within the general principle of specific card text superseding the rule book and allow slipping past ogres (all without reaching to the extent of suggesting the hero turns into mist). Also, the obscuring effect of the mist becomes/remains necessary because incorporeal does not equal invisible.
This would also explain why "veil of mist" allows slipping through an ogre-blocked square, but invisibility does not.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

I agree with inconsistencies of this rule being applied across the spectrum of large monsters, which is why I am intending to apply it to all monsters in my "Large Monster" category, along with making them harder to push back, although I'm not keen on the term "Large Monsters" perhaps "Beasts" or "Huge Monsters" would be a better label for the "attribute", but either way it would include: Ogres, Trolls, Gargoyle, Frozen Horror and others.

I don't agree with the interpretation of Veil of Mist making the recipient incorporeal because that would mean that they could pass through walls, treading on the toes of that spell.

With regards to 'sleeping' monsters, then I agree in that state they would no longer block movement, after all when they are killed, they are removed from the board and therefore no longer block, even though logically the corpse would remain, so a sleeping Ogre wouldn't present any different body profile than a dead one.

[Kurgan]

*Imagines the heroes having to bury the enemy bodies, or at least turn them into ashes before passing by! (video games: enemy corpses disappear)

Makes me also wonder, should a homebrew "Ogre Mercenary" also block movement of allies (or not, because he's on your side and will always allow you to pass... or maybe only for a few extra coins?)?

[Markus Darwath]

I don't agree with the interpretation of Veil of Mist making the recipient incorporeal because that would mean that they could pass through walls, treading on the toes of that spell.

You have a good point which I had not initially considered. I was thinking of it in similar terms to "misty step" in D&D, where the movement end-point must be a space the character can see. But that would bring it in conflict with HQ's line of sight rule, which the ogre blocks.

[Bareheaded Warrior]

What about Dust of Disappearance?